Chelsie D'Malta - LowBono/ProBono Business Model

Louis Goodman / Chelsie D’Malta – Transcript

Louis Goodman 00:04 

Welcome to Love Thy Lawyer, where we talk with attorneys about their lives and careers. I am Louis Goodman. Today we welcome Chelsie D'Malta to the podcast. Ms. D'Malta has substantial experience in representing indigent clients in both civil and criminal proceedings. Prior to opening her own practice. She gained experience working as a public defender and as an associate at private law firms.

Ms. D'Malta has received recognition and awards for her child advocacy and graduated Cum Laude from the University of San Diego. Chelsea D'Malta, welcome to Love Thy Lawyer. 

Chelsie D'Malta 00:46 

Hi. Thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. 

Louis Goodman 00:49 

Well, I'm excited to have you on. Where are you speaking to us from right now?

Chelsie D'Malta 00:53 

I am speaking to you from my home office in Contra Costa County. 

Louis Goodman 00:57 

Can you tell us a little bit about what type of practice that you have right now? 

Chelsie D'Malta 01:03 

Sure. So right now I would say about 95 percent of my practice. Maybe I would say maybe actually 80 percent of my practice is low bono and the remainder is pro bono.

So I practice criminal defense, which is my one true love, as well as juvenile justice. So dependency and delinquency cases. And then sometimes I dabble in complex child custody and visitation cases. And then of course, restraining orders. So domestic violence restraining orders, civil harassment, elder abuse, and so on.

Louis Goodman 01:43 

And when you say low bono, that means you charge fees that are generally lower than market rate so that people can hire you on kind of a sliding scale? 

Chelsie D'Malta 01:54 

Absolutely. Yes. Yes. That has been one of my challenges as far as kind of going into the private sector is how to come to terms with charging people for what I feel like they should have to be charged for, right. And allowing equal access to justice. 

Louis Goodman 02:13 

Where are you from originally? 

Chelsie D'Malta 02:15 

New Orleans, Louisiana. Born and raised. 

Louis Goodman 02:18 

Did you go to high school in New Orleans? 

Chelsie D'Malta 02:20 

I did. I went to an all-girls Catholic school from fifth grade up, and I'm part of the, I guess, the alumni of the Society of the Sacred Heart. 

Louis Goodman 02:29 

So what was that experience like, being in an all-girls school in New Orleans?

Chelsie D'Malta 02:33 

Oh gosh. It's, so it's, in my experience, it's typical that often a lot of students or kids my age at the time go to either all-boys schools or all-girls schools. There are some kind of co ed schools, but it gave me an excellent education and college was a breeze compared to high school. 

Louis Goodman 02:59 

So when you got to the University of San Diego, is that correct?

Chelsie D'Malta 03:03 

Yes. 

Louis Goodman 03:04 

That seems like quite a transition from an all-girls school in New Orleans to be now in San Diego, the south part of the left coast. Very co-educational experience. What was that transition like? 

Chelsie D'Malta 03:22 

I think that just being born and bred in the south that even in my own high school, probably 95 percent of the gals that I graduated with winded up going on to just all Southern schools. There were very, very few of us that went anywhere outside of the South. But with that, the University of San Diego was founded by the Society of the Sacred Heart nuns, I guess. So it was recommended to me and I, for a while, I said, no way. I'm not going to go to California. I'm not a California girl. I don't have blonde hair and a tan. That's not me. 

But then when I visited the campus, eventually I came across the, I think it was the Joan B. Kroc, Institution for Peace and Justice studies. I said, I don't know what I want to do in my future, but. I know that this building is where it's at. So it was very different. I remember the first time it, the first time it rained on campus in San Diego I literally remember thinking, is classes, are classes canceled today? Because it just, you know, never rained there. And versus my experience in New Orleans where it rains all the time. So it was very, very different. I felt very good there. 

Louis Goodman 04:40 

You ultimately went to law school. Where'd you go to law school? 

Chelsie D'Malta 04:42 

USF law school.

Louis Goodman 04:45 

Another Catholic institution? 

Chelsie D'Malta 04:47 

Another Catholic, now it's founded by the Jesuits, which are known to be the coolest of the priests, I guess. 

Louis Goodman 04:52 

Did you take any time off between graduating from the University of San Diego and going to USF, or did you just go straight through? 

Chelsie D'Malta 05:00 

I took about a year. I worked with what was called the Community CASA and the Community Service Learning Program, basically, and so I worked with them in leading a volunteer program in Juvenile Hall.

I fell in love with it even after graduating, I still continued to lead that program. And then I got a job as a Mental Health Rehabilitation Specialist with SAY San Diego, which is Social Advocates for Youth. At that time, I thought, this is my dream job. I'm getting to go into juvenile halls and all sorts of juvenile institutions and probation run institutions and teach classes and also do one on one counseling with youth who were incarcerated. And I loved it. And then at, also during that time, that's when I got my acceptance into law school. So I was, that was a big fork in the road and it was a big decision for me because I loved what I was doing, but I knew that I also wanted to help effectuate change at a higher level. 

Louis Goodman 06:02 

When did you first know that you were a lawyer, that you wanted to go to law school, you wanted to be a lawyer?

Chelsie D'Malta 06:08 

Oh, that's a good question. So I'll say this. I went into undergrad thinking I wanted to be an orthodontist, maybe. Right. And then as I kind of got to, and I, but I also knew that I loved helping people. As I've kind of made my way through undergrad in my experiences, specifically working with juveniles at juvenile hall, those experiences changed me.

I felt that in working with hundreds of youth at that time, they really had me in awe of how brilliant their minds are. However, you know, I mean, they were just, I remember sitting there, they're describing these sociological theories and these psychological theories and concepts that people in my own college classes could not really wrap their heads around, yet these kids were describing them and naming them, but didn't have the technological, you know, the, the terms for them.

And there was one event in particular where I was in the girls unit and I sat around with, I think, six or seven girls. I think it's on a Saturday and they were describing to me this situation or this what really had become kind of well-known in their community where they were dealing with in their apartment complex and in their housing complexes that there was regular sex trafficking and really the kidnapping, raping, disappearances of young women. And then everyone kind of turned a blind eye and that they had told this to their attorneys and to the, you know, they had turned this, told us their probation officers. And I remember sitting back in my chair and not having the words, right. I didn't know how to make this better, but I told them then that day, I don't know that I can affect change and help you right now, but I promise and I vow that I will do something.

Maybe it won't affect you. Maybe it won't affect your children, hopefully your grandchildren, but I promise that I will, I'm going to change my path because I believe in you guys and I, and it's what's happening isn't fair. And so that was kind of the day that I said, you know, wipe my hands of the orthodontistry career track and juvenile justice became my number one love.

Louis Goodman 08:35 

It must've also been quite a transition going from San Diego to San Francisco. Can you do a little compare and contrast on those two experiences? 

Chelsie D'Malta 08:48 

Sure. Well, San Diego to me, at least at the time was, I called it never, never land. No one ever grows up there. That was my experience, at least at the time I was there, right?

You've got the beach, the weather, it's amazing. There was not a big rush to see what I saw for myself and to really hop on that train. And I knew I needed to get out. And then living in San Francisco was a little bit of a different vibe, but it wasn't difficult for me to acclimate myself there. It just felt like a different city.

I loved USF campus and actually USF law school was the only law school I applied to because I didn't want to go anywhere else. 

Louis Goodman 09:30 

When you got out of law school, you did some work at Public Defender's Offices and some private practice. I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about your legal experience before you opened your own practice.

Chelsie D'Malta 09:42 

Sure. So I consider myself still to this day, a Public Defender at heart. I'm still trying to fight the good fight. I know the Public Defender Offices are often overwhelmed. It presents a challenge to me to charge for services, which I feel like someone shouldn't have to pay for, right? So I definitely still have the Public Defender heart.

I feel like I wear it on my sleeve, so to speak, but it really was truly the training and experience in Public Defender Offices, specifically Alameda County, that I gained. The most experience so that when I had a Public Defender job after officially being a lawyer, the compliments I received by the deputies in the courtroom, by the judges, by my colleagues, by the DAs, that like, how did you just know what to do from just the get go?

And it was like, it, at that time, I was, well, it came naturally, but it really was my, the learning and the experiences that I gained in specifically Alameda County Public Defender's Office. I had a brief stint in Santa Clara Juvenile Unit, which I loved. But yeah, I think I really owe my ability to lawyer as I do now really to the PD's office.

Louis Goodman 11:05  

And which other Public Defender's Offices did you work at? 

Chelsie D'Malta 11:08 

After law school, like my first official job at a PD's Office was in Mendocino County, which was different, very different because it was such a small town, at least Ukiah, California. It was just very different. The types of crimes that we dealt with were very different and just the ability to live was very different there as far I felt like attorneys in that Small city. We're almost like local celebrities and I didn't like that. And so, although I appreciate and loved the experience, I knew that I wanted to, to be other places. 

Louis Goodman 11:47 

So where did you go after you left Ukiah? 

Chelsie D'Malta 11:50 

Came back to the Bay area.

Louis Goodman 11:52 

And what'd you do? 

Chelsie D'Malta 11:53 

Started working at the Nieves law firm with Joanna Nieves, who's an amazing mentor, amazing attorney, runs an amazing business and amazing law firm. And I think from her, I gained how to be even more meticulous. And I think both Joanna Nieves and I are very similar in our level, like perfectionism and detail orientedness.

Louis Goodman 12:19 

She's been interviewed on this podcast as you may not know. 

Chelsie D'Malta 12:22 

Yes, and she's amazing too. I mean, she's a sister from another Mr. Like a soul. We're on the same wavelength. 

Louis Goodman 12:30 

Can you be specific about something that you feel you learned working with the Nieves firm? 

Chelsie D'Malta 12:36 

She is extremely passionate and she's very, very, very good at kind of saying, okay, steps one through seven, or, you know, and so she's very, very good at leading a team and getting others to really hone in on how to get to the end result that you want.

Louis Goodman 12:58 

You've been practicing law in a number of different capacities, a number of different ways. What is it that you really like about practicing law and what keeps you as an attorney? 

Chelsie D'Malta 13:10 

What I love most about practicing law is helping people feel heard, making people feel like their story is relevant, that someone cares.

I often hear even from my own colleagues and best friends who are attorneys that I should have explored social work or explore being a therapist. And with that, I say, I can combine those skills too. And I do. And I struggle with this as a, you know, a business practice, but you know, if a client calls me, there's been times if a client calls me in the middle of the night, I answer and allow them to kind of vent as if I am a therapist and I'm not.

And they know that, but it's, I just really, at the end of the day, I want a person to feel valued, no matter what they've done, no matter if they've done it or not, right? Because we're, I know people say like, we're not, we are not what we have done at our worst, right? However, I still try to be very realistic and I'm realistic with my clients and, you know, the potential consequences for if there is a wrongdoing, but I really just want someone to feel heard. And to feel like despite what they may or may not have done that there's an opportunity to see a different future, even if that means they're incarcerated for 25, you know, can you write a book? Can you, you know, write, you know, just depending on their circumstances. So I really just want to make a person feel heard, valued, appreciated. And also make that person feel like what they have to say matters, even if it's not in the courtroom, also outside of the courtroom, like connecting them with resources, housing resources, mental health resources. 

Louis Goodman 15:01 

If a young person were just coming out of college thinking about a career choice, would you recommend law?

Chelsie D'Malta 15:06 

If they're, yes, I would say yes, if that's what they wanted to do, right? So long as it's not like, oh, my dad is an attorney, my grandpa's an attorney, so I have to be an attorney too. Do what you love. I've always felt that way. I have never done law for the money. I've never done law because someone told me to do it.

I did it because I wanted to do something I love so that it doesn't feel like work. And even when it doesn't feel like work, it's kind of like watching a really good movie or like doing, you know, it's just, it's something I love. So it's almost like a hobby. 

Louis Goodman 15:43 

How has actually practicing law either met or differed from your expectations about it?

Chelsie D'Malta 15:49 

I don't know that I had any expectations of it, but I would say the, the most difficult thing for me, again, is like the billing and charging situation, because I guess I didn't really think about that before becoming a lawyer. Like, you know, making people, you know, that thing, like, it stands and challenges me every step of the way.

Louis Goodman 16:13 

Well, let's talk about that for a minute. You know, what about the business of practicing law? You worked in a Public Defender's Office, you worked for some other firms, presumably in those situations, the billing, the collecting of money, the asking for money, the running of a business, the signing the front of the checks as opposed to just the back of your check.

It's different and it's an important part of any law practice. And I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about how that has gone for you, especially since you've been very upfront about saying that that's difficult for you. 

Chelsie D'Malta 16:50 

It's been very difficult. I, probably to a fault, put my clients and their families first, and I want them to succeed. I want, you know, I want them to feel whole or try to help them feel whole. With that come become, you know, there's a challenge of, oh wait, you still have to run your own business. So that's very new to me. And I'm trying to work that out, but it, at the same time, again, it's really, you know, there's an internal struggle with how do I charge this person for representation of X, Y, and Z?

And even though I'm confident that, okay, maybe it should be one price and then I reduce the fee to another price. And I, but I know that they're on, you know, they're receiving government benefits that maybe they're a single mom with four kids. And not receiving child support. Maybe it's a situation that they're a domestic violence victim and now they're going through this, you know, this criminal justice process.

It's just very difficult for me to then say, Hey, you're a victim too, but now you're also a victim of the criminal justice system by, you know, being accused of these crimes or these charges. And guess what? Now you have to also pay with money you don't even have. That's challenging for me. So I do work with people.

Again, I, even like in family law, I operate on a much lower hourly rate. And then in criminal cases, I allow them to make payments. I have a client who I actually, I think two days ago, just made a 50 payment. And I know that that's, she's doing the best that she can in doing that 50 payment. And so on the business side of things, it's more of a struggle, but I know what a strain and how heavy it can be to be going through, you know, the criminal justice system and dealing with these things.

And I surely don't want to be an added stress. I think I'd rather you spend your money on daycare for your kids or having food in your belly or being able to have a Mother's Day outing at the zoo. I don't care, right? Rather than worrying about paying me because I know that I'll be okay at the end of the day.

Louis Goodman 19:13 

What do you think's the best advice you've ever received? And, or, for purposes of this question, what advice would you give to a young attorney just starting out? 

Chelsie D'Malta 19:23 

Best advice that I've ever received probably came from my mom at some point. And, but I don't know that I've actually taken the advice, but you have to save yourself first, right?

Growing up, I wanted to save the whole world. I mean, from a, really a toddler, but my mom always instilled in me, you have to save yourself first, and I think I'm still learning that to this day, but I think that it's the same advice I would give any other young attorney that love yourself first take care of yourself first but also take care of the world around you too.

Louis Goodman 19:59 

Do you think the legal system's fair? 

Chelsie D'Malta 20:01 

Absolutely not. 

Louis Goodman 20:03 

Why not? 

Chelsie D'Malta 20:03 

Well, I refer to it as the criminal injustice system. I mean, I don't think anything about it is fair. I think that there are serious issues about access to justice, and I'm thinking of, you know, everything from, you know, probate court to custody and divorce and obviously, you know, criminal justice systems and the criminal cases.

You know, if you look at the budgets throughout the state, even just DA's Offices versus Public Defender's Offices. There's just no comparison. I mean, it's sad and it's unfair. And I think actually we just, I say we, but the Public Defender's Office or the governor just cut the PD's budgets once again. And how can you have a fair system when one side the DA's office, right, the prosecution, who's representing the state, who already has a heads up.

Then you have the PD's office or that free legal representation, and then now you're going to cut their budget even further. It just, all the resources go to the state. If the state or its people care so much about these constitutional rights, then wouldn't you want those same rights afforded on both sides, right. So the prosecution versus the defense. 

Louis Goodman 21:23 

I'm going to shift gears here a little bit, Chelsie. What's your family and personal life been like, and how has that affected your practice of law and how has the practice of law affected that, you know, kind of the work life balance question? 

Chelsie D'Malta 21:41 

Oh, so again, born and raised in New Orleans, Louisiana. People ask, why did you move to California? Top two reasons I say racism and humidity hands down. 

Louis Goodman 21:54 

Getting away from those things I presume. 

Chelsie D'Malta 21:56 

Oh my gosh. Yes. Yes Trying to at least, but I think something that's been very unique about my experience is when I was a senior in high school graduating and actually just a week after I graduated high school my uncle And this is in New Orleans, my uncle was a, his name is Robin D'Malta, and he was a very, very well-known gay activist and gay hairdresser, won tons of awards. He did Cindy Crawford's hair. I mean, he was amazing. He was very, very creative. He was brutally murdered in New Orleans, and it felt like I was in one big Lifetime movie really from start to finish and I don't think there ever is a finish actually I should say that I was there the day it happened.

I mean the whole the whole case was so overwhelming and confusing there would have been there's been a conviction of one person at least although they're think they think that there were more that one person involved, but if it wasn't for my mom nothing would have been done. My mom fought tooth and nail to get some sort of justice for my uncle.

And I remember, this is pretty personal, but, so I have one uncle that's been murdered, and we're planning his funeral, and at the same time, my other uncle was in prison, serving a drug offense, right? So it's like, and somehow, by the grace of God, my mother was able to get my uncle, the other, the thriving uncle, to be able to come to the funeral.

Which was amazing and not in shackles or anything either, but throughout the trial I was actually I think maybe fortunately for me I was on a semester at sea and I was an undergrad and so I didn't get to sit in on the trial I didn't get to see the photographs, but I remember throughout this being extremely interested in the legal side of things because there were several very Interesting legal issues. And even thereafter, given that at the time in Louisiana, you could have a, a guilty, you can have a conviction with 10 out of 12 jurors. You didn't need a unanimous jury, but I was able to be there for the sentencing. And I remember one of the big considerations for my family was, you know, to what degree they were going to charge him with, I believe of murder. And how that would affect the sentencing, whether they were going to go after the death penalty or life, essentially. And I remember my whole family was so gung-ho on this, on this. They wanted the death penalty. They wanted to see this guy never see the light of day again. And I remember in the sentencing and listening to my mom's victim witness impact statement.

And I remember feeling bad for the guy. And my whole thing, I, and I couldn't understand, I could understand what my family's feeling, the anger, right? The sadness, but I remember just feeling like at the end of the day, he too is a human being. And I remember feeling sad and bad for the words my mom spoke to this man and thinking, you know, well, he too has kids.

He too is never, you know, so I think it really opened my eyes into understanding that even in the worst, most heinous of crimes, there isn't just one victim. Right? Yes, there may be the victim who is the deceased, regardless of how brutal, how heinous the crime is. Oftentimes, on the other side of the table, on the defense, there's also a family who's grieving the loss of their son or daughter or, or however they identify, but they're, that person may or may not have children, whether it's their animals, there can be a loss on both sides.

Recognizing that, and so I think in my career as a defense attorney, although I think my grandparents who speak very little English still don't really understand what I do, but I try to get my family to understand that, you know, I feel like I represent victims too, in the sense of there can be victims on both sides or more than one side, really. And that's really shaped my compassion and my love for what I do. 

Louis Goodman 26:31 

Do you have any recreational pursuits that you do to kind of get your mind off of the practice of law? 

Chelsie D'Malta 26:37 

A few cats, cats all day long. I've got four wonderful cats right now. I'm recently engaged having come out of the closet a little later in life, but I'm engaged to a woman.

We live together with our cats. And then I love tattoos. And then lastly, kind of randomly, I'm training to be a fitness instructor for a particular type of class, which is like a weightlifting class called body pump. I highly recommend it for anybody. I love it. 

Louis Goodman 27:13 

Is there someone, living or dead, who you'd like to meet?

Chelsie D'Malta 27:17  

Yes, but I've already met that person before, but I would like to, like, if it's kind of one of the questions, like if I could have someone sitting at my table for a dinner or something. Right. Father Gregory Boyle, who's a Jesuit priest. I don't know if you're familiar with him, but he started Homeboy Industries out of Los Angeles.

I've actually, I don't know if you can see this, but I've got him actually tattooed on my arm. 

Louis Goodman 27:41 

I see that. Unfortunately, for those of you who are listening to the podcast, you can't see it, but Chelsea just showed me a very realistic looking, almost photographic quality tattoo on her right bicep area. 

Chelsie D'Malta 27:59 

His name is Father Gregory Boyle. I've only met him very, very briefly. At the time I did not have this tattoo on my arm, but I did have a quote that he wrote in one of my favorite books on my foot. But if I could even have, you know, 20 minutes with him and also shout out if I could possibly get him to bless my fiancé and I's future marriage, I would love that.

But he wrote one of the best books he put into words, what I could never describe of why I love what I do. It's called Tattoos on the Heart, The Power of Boundless Compassion. And everything he writes in that book is just phenomenal. And I once, whenever the day he passes, I, he's looking at some sainthood.

He's just a beautiful, beautiful person and has done amazing things, amazing things. 

Louis Goodman 28:53 

Let's say you came into some real money, let's say three or four billion dollars. Billion. Yeah, with a B. What, if anything, would you do differently in your life? 

Chelsie D'Malta 29:06 

Like moving forward or in even the past? 

Louis Goodman 29:10 

Well, I don't think there's much any of us can do about the past. So let's talk about living, moving forward. 

Chelsie D'Malta 29:16 

Sure. I would maybe think about taking maybe 1 billion of that whole amount. Maybe if not cutting that half and donating a large portion to Homeboy Industries would probably continue working. I love what I do, but I would probably maybe work less. And I would love to start, kind of a dream of mine, two things. One, to start a cat sanctuary or animal sanctuary. Whether it's like a farm with, you know, farm animals, and then also, and dogs too. But then I think I would love to start a legal, some sort of legal service organization. And, or, Invest or put money into one that already exists. 

Louis Goodman 30:04 

Let's say you had a magic wand, there was one thing in the world, the legal world or otherwise, that you could change, what would that be? 

Chelsie D'Malta 30:11 

Access, better access to justice, whether that's better access to, you know, somebody filing something in probate court or in family court and more comprehensive access throughout the state. 

Louis Goodman 30:28 

What if you had 60 seconds on the Super Bowl, someone gave you a Super Bowl ad, you could speak to this huge audience. What, if anything, would you like to say to that big audience? 

Chelsie D'Malta 30:41 

I would, if I had 60 seconds. I would probably put, it would just be a black screen, maybe with white lettering, and it would say something like everything will be okay, period, and then at the very bottom of the screen, you know, Maybe resources for mental health. 

Louis Goodman 31:03 

Chelsie, if someone would like to get in touch with you someone who needs some legal representation or perhaps another attorney who Would like to be able to pick your brain get some advice about how to deal with a specific issue that they might think you could help with what's the best way to contact you? 

Chelsie D'Malta 31:25 

Sure. If you could search my you can search my name on the website for the California State bar, which for whatever reason, the state bar has me under like four names.

Like you have to type in all four names, Chelsea Lynn D'Malta Thurmond. And there from there, you'll find my contact information. 

Louis Goodman 31:48 

Is there anything, Chelsie that you would like to talk about that we haven't discussed anything that we haven't touched on anything at all that you'd like to bring up? 

Chelsie D'Malta 31:56 

I don't think so. I don't think so. That was great. 

Louis Goodman 32:00 

Chelsie D'Malta, thank you so much for joining me today on the Love Thy Lawyer podcast. It's been a pleasure to talk to you. 

Chelsie D'Malta 32:08 

Thank you so much. And it's truly been a pleasure. I'm so excited to do this. 

Louis Goodman 32:12 

That's it for today's episode of Love Thy Lawyer. If you enjoyed listening, please share it with a friend and follow the podcast. If you have comments or suggestions, send me an email. Take a look at our website at lovethylawyer.com, where you can find all of our episodes, transcripts, photographs and information.

Thanks to my guests, and to Joel Katz for music, Bryan Matheson for technical support, Paul Robert for social media and Tracy Harvey. I'm Louis Goodman.

Chelsie D'Malta 32:51 

Oh gosh. So many things. I think, I mean really every, I can't just cite one thing, really everything. And what was your second question, part of the question? 

Louis Goodman 33:00 

You can talk about anything you want.