Cherie Wallace - USF

Cherie Wallace - Transcript

Louis Goodman 00:04 

Welcome to the Love Thy Lawyer podcast. I'm Louis Goodman. Today Cherie Wallace joins us. Cherie is a skilled Bay Area criminal defense attorney with over 15 years of experience. She's handled numerous felony, misdemeanor, immigration, and civil restraining order cases. Cherie takes particular pride in helping clients get back on track and giving them a second chance in life. She is a member of the Alameda County Bar Association, and also serves on the Criminal Justice Committee, the Racial and Ethnic Diversity Committee and the Alternatives to Incarceration Committee for the American Bar Association. Cherie Wallace, welcome to the Love Thy Lawyer podcast. 

Cherie Wallace 00:48 

Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be here. 

Louis Goodman 00:51 

Where are you talking to us from right now? 

Cherie Wallace 00:54 

Right now I am in an office in Redwood City. I have offices in Dublin, Redwood City, and San Francisco. I rarely go to the one in San Francisco due to my rejection of all things traffic and parking, but you can find me in Dublin or Redwood City more often than not.

Louis Goodman 01:12 

Tell me what kind of practice that you have. 

Cherie Wallace 01:15 

I am 99% a criminal practice. 

Louis Goodman 01:18 

Where are you from originally? 

Cherie Wallace 01:20 

South San Francisco, but I was born in San Francisco. I went to San Francisco for schooling pretty much the whole way through. 

Louis Goodman 01:27 

Where'd you go to high school? 

Cherie Wallace 01:29 

Mercy High School, which is no longer with us. They have closed it since. 

Louis Goodman 01:33 

I understand that's an all-girls Catholic high school where they gave you a very good all-girls Catholic high school education.

Cherie Wallace 01:43 

You know, I think the thing that I learned most from being in an all-girls school is, when you're a teenager, it's very tough being around all girls. 

Louis Goodman 01:50 

Now, when you got out of Mercy, where did you go to college? 

Cherie Wallace 01:53 

San Francisco State. I didn't go far, both are on 19th Avenue in San Francisco. 

Louis Goodman 01:58 

So you just went across the street?

Cherie Wallace 02:01 

I crossed the street. I wanted to stay close to Stonestown Mall. 

Louis Goodman 02:04 

When you graduated from San Francisco State, where'd you go to law school? 

Cherie Wallace 02:09 

Not too far from there. I went to USF. I am a local girl through and through. 

Louis Goodman 02:13 

See you were back in the Catholic education system?

Cherie Wallace 02:17 

Yes. Yes. Technically a Jesuit law school, indeed. I also went to a Catholic grammar school, so I have so much guilt I don't know what to do with it. 

Louis Goodman 02:28 

Well, use it practicing law. 

Cherie Wallace 02:30 

That's right. That's right. 

Louis Goodman 02:32 

When did you very first start thinking about being a lawyer and what prompted you to start thinking about it? 

Cherie Wallace 02:38 

I do have a lot of family members who have substance abuse issues and my mom is the eldest of 14. A lot of my family members have been in the system, local jails and prison. Having said that, there was a movie when I was younger, Savannah Smiles. It's about a little girl who runs away from neglectful parents and somehow ends up in the backseat of a car with two guys who just broke out of prison. It actually is a feel good story. It sounds like the beginning of a terrible movie, but it's adorable. They end up falling in love with the little girl, helping her get back to her family. But the movie culminates with them being arrested and taken back to prison, which killed me because they were such good guys and they had found their way. And it just, yeah, I didn't like seeing the good guys go to prison at the end of the movie. It bothered me then, and I guess it still bothers me now. 

Louis Goodman 03:24 

What did your friends and family think when you told them that you were gonna go be a lawyer? 

Cherie Wallace 03:29 

My friends were excited for me. A lot of them weren't really surprised. I think my family was a little bit concerned. I don't know if they really expected me to do something so academic and I think they were a little worried that I'd have trouble making it through law school and passing the bar. They knew it was a challenging thing to do. And I don't know if they thought that I was qualified for it, I guess is the word.

Louis Goodman 03:52 

Well, you certainly did get through law school. You certainly did pass the bar. And you have been practicing law in your own practice. Can you tell us a little bit about your path from graduating from USF to being in the very active practice that you now run on your own these days? 

Cherie Wallace 04:19 

So almost instantly I was with Bay Area Criminal Lawyers, PC, which is a small boutique firm. It's located in San Francisco, but that's kind of misleading in the sense that it has cases all over the place. And actually the minority of cases for Bay Area Criminal Lawyers is in San Francisco. They do things all over the place, primarily Alameda, San Mateo, Santa Clara, pretty much everywhere. And so I started off in private practice criminal defense. It was a time, when 2007, 2008 was a time when most Public Defender's Offices were firing their last hired. They were having major cutbacks, hiring freezes. So I was absolutely elated to be working in the field of criminal law because it was a time where a lot of people wanted to do that and weren't able to. 

Louis Goodman 05:08 

You were pretty focused on criminal law right from the get go, is that correct? 

Cherie Wallace 05:12 

There was never anything else for me. It wasn't a question of whether I would do criminal law. 

Louis Goodman 05:17 

What do you really like about practicing law? 

Cherie Wallace 05:20 

I really love having an impact on in real time, an impact you can see on real people.

When I help a client get out of jail, it's clear to me what I've done. I have been on the phone with his wife or with his children, I am able to see him home. When I win a case where I know my client was innocent, or I know he was overcharged and what the government wanted wasn't justice, I can see the result of that.

Louis Goodman 05:47 

Yeah. I think there's something very special that I don't know if other people can understand this, but there's something very special about having somebody come into your office and sit there across the desk from you when in the past, the only time you ever saw them was through a piece of bulletproof glass.

Cherie Wallace 06:07 

You know, it's a beautiful thing to get someone home just in time for Christmas or when they tell you, "Is there any chance I'll be out by my son's birthday?" Maybe. It's a wonderful thing. I really love those moments and they, you know, they make it very much worth it. 

Louis Goodman 06:25 

Would you recommend law to a young person who was just, let's say, getting out of USF?

Cherie Wallace 06:31 

I look at recommending law the same way I look at recommending having a child, you know, when people say, "Oh, I don't know if I'm ready yet" or, I always say unless you are certain, unless the law is really for you. I probably wouldn't only because, especially criminal law, because you have to love it. In my opinion, not just anyone can do criminal law. It's very difficult, especially on the defense end. We have the presumption of innocence, but it doesn't always feel like it and there's a lot of imbalances in the system. You're gonna have a lot of challenges. And law school is expensive and cumbersome. The bar, especially the California bar is a complete beast. There are easier ways to make money out there than doing what we do. And unless you truly love it, unless it's something that you feel you can commit yourself to, I don't know that it would be worth that for me, it was, but for someone who's not really short, I know there's an easier way for them to make a living.

Louis Goodman 07:27 

How has actually practicing met or differed from your expectations about it? 

Cherie Wallace 07:32 

You know, it's pretty similar to the way I thought it would be in the sense that I walked in very clear on what jail and prison was. I think I visited my first jail when I was like four or five years old. I've been in and out of prisons to visit people, so I knew what incarceration was like, so seeing the conditions, seeing my clients scared and unhappy, all those things I knew about. So, I knew how personal it would be to my clients, because I'd seen that through my own family. In terms of the experience in the courtrooms, the variation on judges, the variation on different environments I guess, there are some places and some people on the bench where you think to yourself, God, you know, where am I? This must be OZ because it doesn't feel like it's America. This is not the American dream in here, but for the most part, I knew it would be challenging. I knew there'd be ups and downs. And I knew that I was going to be taking on a tremendous responsibility with other people's lives. So I was prepared that it would be the way it is. 

Louis Goodman 08:36 

What about the business of practicing law? How's that gone for you? And how's that either met or differed from your expectations? 

Cherie Wallace 08:44 

When I decided to become a criminal defense lawyer, I wanted to work in a Public Defender's Office initially, that was my goal. But like I said, that just wasn't really an option because of when I got out of law school, there just weren't hires, they weren't hiring. So starting at a private practice criminal defense firm was tough in certain ways. It was really hard to turn away clients, you know, the business of having to watch the bottom line, because of course, in order for my firm to do great things, we need to make money and we need to be profitable. Can't just help anyone you wanna help, you have to pick and choose. 

Louis Goodman 09:19 

What do you think's the best advice you've ever received, and what advice would you give to a young person just starting a law practice? 

Cherie Wallace 09:29 

Let's see, I have had some really great advice given to me. One for the ladies, I remember I was at a convention and there was a male attorney there. This was when I just started practicing. I was completely green, completely excited to be in the field of law and probably 20 years, at least junior, to almost everyone else in the room. I was at this gala for the convention. It was a black tie thing. We were all very dressed up, but there was a male attorney there, you know, coming on a little strong, trying to kind of encroach a little bit and I was handling it fine. I was doing the old shuffle. I know how to avoid a man when I want to, but I remember one of the women attorneys there, and I can't recall her name now, but I remember her coming up to me saying, "Hey, you looked uncomfortable. Are you okay?" And I said, "Yeah, I'm absolutely fine, I know how to deal with that." And she looked at me and she said "With these guys, you have to be careful. You have to know whether you want them to shake your hand and pat you on the ass because you'll never have both." And she said, "Don't be afraid to stick up for yourself. You don't have to dance along to the tune." I thought that was really sage advice and I heard her. 

I think it's so important. And especially now it's actually this wonderful thing to be able to confront in those situations and to defend yourself, but it hasn't always been that way. And it was the first time I'd had someone tell, essentially look at the situation and I could feel her judging that I wasn't being strong enough in terms of advocating for myself in what I felt in that moment. I didn't let that happen again ever. 

Louis Goodman 11:09 

Is that the advice that you would give to a young attorney starting out as well? 

Cherie Wallace 11:14 

The advice I would give to a young attorney just starting out if they were a woman, of course, I'd give that advice. I give it in a different, more well-rounded way in the sense that I tell all new lawyers, you already, this is particular because for some reason, a lot of the young lawyers that I've met recently are young female minorities. So when I tell them that, I always say you have three strikes against you. You're a young, female minority. And I say that because people will judge. And in California, that sounds strange that those things would be considered strikes against you, but I practice in King's County. I have a trial in Tulare County later this year that California is not so liberal as one might think in certain venues, but I tell them the biggest thing that I think will be a hurdle for you is being young because people will automatically assume that you don't know what you're doing. They'll bully you, they'll try and push you into doing things, they'll talk really fast, they'll use acronyms they know you don't understand and they'll hope that you're afraid to look like you don't know and you'll just play along with them. Don't. Clarify everything. If you don't know what someone's saying or doing, tell them, "I'm sorry. I don't know what you mean by that." because it's so important that we assert ourselves. If you are not advocating for your client, if you're not making sure that you're doing your job in every moment, then, you know, your client has no one.

So, it's so important to be honest when you don't know something, it's so important to not let yourself be mistreated or bullied. It starts with you and your image, and you have to be strong, you have to be willing to look for more knowledge and clarification where you need it. It's important. I think a lot of young attorneys, for a while, they just kind of go along.

I don't think that's a good thing in criminal defense. You can't just go along because you're marching your client somewhere they don't wanna be usually if you're just going along. 

Louis Goodman 13:10 

The notion of saying, "I don't know. Could you please explain that to me?" is something that's really important for all of us. I had a situation just the other day. I was talking to someone who is a far more sophisticated podcaster than I am, and he was using

some initials for some concept and I said, "Well, wait a second. Can you tell me what that is?" and he did, but I mean, I really didn't know. And, you know, I mean, I guess I've gotten to the point in my life where I am happy to tell people, I don't know what they're talking about, please explain that. But yeah, I think it's true. When you're young and just starting out it's really important to be able to say, "Hey, I don't really understand that. Can you explain that?"

Cherie Wallace 14:03 

The squeaky wheel gets the oil. You have to ask for what you need. 

Louis Goodman 14:07 

What mistakes do you think lawyers make? 

Cherie Wallace 14:11 

I think a lot of lawyers don't know their files as well as they should. For example, you know, I think when I receive body cam, because body cam, you know, for a large part at the beginning of my practice, body cam didn't exist in all these cases. There was a time where the majority of cases I had, you would not be in a situation where you'd be able to see the officer's camera footage. But now it's available and that's a wonderful thing. I find a lot of lawyers kind of skim through or skip a lot of. I'll be having conversations with co-defendants lawyers and I'm telling them things and they don't know. And they're important things for their clients because maybe they thought, 'I don't need to watch my client get booked. Nothing really gets said in booking.' or, you know, 'Once my client goes in the car, I kind of see what happens' or 'My client made an admission. I guess I don't really have to finish this. I know how it ends.' I think that's a real mistake because there are gems in that body cam footage a lot of times. In addition, being really prepared, I think that one of the issues with experience is you get to a point where you know how to do most things and you kind of lose that vigor to really dive into each case. Because you've seen it all before, but you haven't. In criminal law you've really you've you haven't seen it all. Everything's just a little bit different. And I find that when you start dialing it in at preliminary hearings, dialing it in at pre-trial conferences. I think that's when your practice starts slipping. 

One of the advantages I think of a criminal defense attorney is we're not police report readers. We don't just read police reports and run with that. We have to do a little more than that because if we just ran with that, we would lose all the time. I mean, we'd never get anywhere. So I think it's just so critical that we know our files better than the other side. And then we have that communication with our clients, which is I would say the biggest thing that people cited when they'd come hire our firm and they were firing their previous lawyer, was that they never spoke to them. They didn't know what was going on. They don't know what happened at their last court date. They don't know what their next court date is. They have no concept of what strategies are in play.

The DA does not have a client. We do, we have someone who either was there or was not there whenever this alleged thing happened and they can help us to defend them. And it's amazing to me how often people do not speak to their clients, like hardly at all. You have to have time to do the work, but speaking with clients is part of the work.

Louis Goodman 16:46 

Do you think the legal system is fair? 

Cherie Wallace 16:49

Our legal system's a human system. And anything that's human is going to be fair or unfair given the circumstances, given who is, who are the people in place. I mean, I have seen our system do beautiful things. I have left trials where I am practically in tears because I'm so happy with what happened and I just feel so good about what I witnessed, because it would've been so easy for a miscarriage of justice to happen and it didn't. Everyone did their job so well, but that's not always the case. I mean, I've also left court wanting to, you know, cry tears of sadness, because I cannot believe the miscarriage of justice I just witnessed. 

Louis Goodman 17:32 

What, if anything, would you change about the way the legal system works? 

Cherie Wallace 17:36 

I have thought about this question so many times and tried to think what would I do with it. And whenever, and this is a good thing as the answers are coming through my mind, thinking about, I see it. I see it in small pieces. I have always thought that clients being in custody, not being able to get out solely because they cannot afford to make bail, I mean, that has bothered me since the beginning of my career. And finally, I see some movement, some traction with that, right? Humphrey's has changed everything. I feel like that's important, you know. I think in terms of trying to reform laws where they're either antiquated or they don't work. I see things happening. I see developments in the law. I see behavioral health court popping up and not only popping up everywhere, but adding services. I see an eye towards diversion with the new diversion laws that came out last year. I think those have been tremendous. 

The things that I would change are there. It just, it's not moving as fast as I would like, and it doesn't operate as effectively as I would like. I guess it's just a matter of needing more of it. Most courts, for example, when you have someone who's suitable for something like diversion or for drug court, there's not enough room, there's no room at the end. You can't get all the clients in there that really need those things and deserve those things. So that's very problematic, you know, like everything it's space. 

Louis Goodman 19:05 

Cherie, I'm gonna shift gears here a little bit. What's your family life like and how has practicing law fit into your family situation? 

Cherie Wallace 19:16 

When I first started my career at Bay Area Criminal Lawyers, I was so eager. You know, I was the first year associate and then the second year associate. I don't think I took more than a day or two of vacation in my first two years, three years combined. In fact, I don't think I called in sick once for at least my first two years. I was working all the time. But I didn't have children. Once I got to a place where I had children, by then I was the senior associate at Bay Area Criminal Lawyers. And not only did I have my own big caseload, I was also helping younger attorneys with their caseloads and helping with things behind the scenes. It was, it was very, very demanding. And I got to a place where my son was actually calling myself and my mother, mom, both of us. 26 hours of labor. It hurts when they call someone else mom. It wasn't a good experience for me. And that in large part contributed to me deciding to develop my own practice because when I got pregnant with my second child, which was not long thereafter, I had my children back to back, I resigned for Bay Area Criminal Lawyers as the senior associate. And now I'm of counsel with them.

I still work with them all the time, but I have my own practice, which is a very busy practice now. But it's busy on my terms. I'm able to set my hours. I'm able to decide which cases I do and don't take and how I can do those cases in a way where I'm giving everyone the time and attention they deserve, my clients who need me to be very dedicated to them, but also my family who needs me.  I think I've struck a pretty good balance of it. Always harder when you're in trial, like for example, I've got this trial coming up in Tulare County. I will be away from home more than I have ever been away from my children since they were born and, you know, and to that extent I am dreading it because I'm just gonna miss them so much, but I know they understand, and that's why I have my own practice. I've been giving them as much time as I can and doing special things, preparing them for the fact that they will have to share me for a couple weeks sometimes soon. 

Louis Goodman 21:19 

How many children do you have? 

Cherie Wallace 21:21 

I have a five and a half year old girl who is one of the most frightening creatures I've ever encountered. She is a tough cookie. 

Louis Goodman 21:31 

She must take after somebody, huh? 

Cherie Wallace 21:33 

You know what my mom says I got exactly what I deserved. I have a son, he's seven years old. Great, wonderful, very intelligent child. I have two stepchildren. They're beautiful. I have a 21 year old, very intelligent young man gonna graduate from college next year. He's done very well for himself. Wonderful, artistic, beautiful stepdaughter who is 26 now and finding her way in the world. 

Louis Goodman 21:58 

Well, that's great. Congratulations. 

Cherie Wallace 22:00 

Thank you. 

Louis Goodman 22:01 

Have you had any interesting travel experience? 

Cherie Wallace 22:05 

When I was in law school, I took my first trip to Europe and I actually studied abroad. I used the term study abroad loosely because I don't recall maybe studying as much as I was supposed to abroad, but I sure do remember having a great time. I was in Ireland and the Czech Republic. I took classes there, and while I was there, I traveled to Italy and spent just a little bit of time in England. It was a beautiful experience. 

Louis Goodman 22:33 

What sort of recreational pursuits do you have when you're trying to get your mind off of the law a little bit? 

Cherie Wallace 22:40 

I play semi-professional poker and so I don't play very much anymore. When I was in law school, that's how I made my mortgage payments. Yeah. Oh yeah. I learned to play...

Louis Goodman 22:52 

Where do you, where do you do that? That's interesting. I don't think I've ever talked to anybody who's played professional poker. Certainly not on the podcast. 

Cherie Wallace 23:02 

I live in South San Francisco, which is by Lucky Chances Casino, so I learned how to play. I learned how to play poker, actually in law school, by the way. I had never gambled a day in my life until I was in law school. I started playing with a group of friends and just, I started destroying them. It just, it came to me instantly and I found I was just crushing the games I was in and when I started playing in the casino environment, same thing. Beginner’s luck and then finally I started becoming actually good at it. Not just lucky.

And, so yeah, Lucky Chances Casino in Colma, Bay 101 in San Jose. Yeah, just all over the place. And of course I travel to Vegas and play tournaments when I can. I've played in the world series of poker. I've cashed in quite a few events, I think maybe then 12 or so. But yeah, I used to play weekly, but since I had children, it's sparing. This summer I am hoping that when the World Series of Poker is in session for the two months in June and July, I am hoping I will get some play in, but it does take a backseat to my family and my work. So we'll see. 

Louis Goodman 24:08 

Do you think it's a mistake for anybody sitting across a poker table from you to underestimate you because you're a young female minority? 

Cherie Wallace 24:18 

Not a mistake that I would let them in on.

Listen, I love being underestimated at the poker table and I try to be, and this is the way, I'm a friendly person. I'm pretty warm and fuzzy in person in all environments. But I always tell the guys, listen, you're gonna love this experience. Losing to me is the next best thing to winning. It feels almost as good because you're just gonna have such a great time. It's just, it's right there. It's close. I tell that to prosecutors too, but they never think it's funny. Ever. 

Louis Goodman 24:52 

If you couldn't be a lawyer, would you be a professional poker player? 

Cherie Wallace 24:58 

You know, that's an interesting question. And I have had years where I've made more money playing poker than I have as an attorney. And people, especially during those years where I'm doing things and they're working out a certain way, people ask, you know, why don't you do that? Or I love poker. It's a wonderful time. I really enjoy it. 

How can you compare having a great tournament and winning, you know, 30, 40, 50 thousand dollars. How can you compare that to this man was looking at 30 years in prison and I just walked him out of his courthouse. He's going home. He's gonna spend the rest of his life with his wife, with his children. He's going home. And that happened because I was there. It's not the same. I would never get the meaning. I really love what I do. I consider it a privilege. It's a privilege to be able to practice law. You know, playing poker isn't a privilege, it's an experience. They're different. 

Louis Goodman 25:57 

How do you define success?

Cherie Wallace 25:59 

I don't know that there are goals. For example, being a great lawyer, that's gonna change year to year for me because being a great lawyer changes as the law shifts. Every case, there's a different definition of winning. In some cases, winning is a straight acquittal, right? In some cases it's a dismissal. Winning varies, but putting yourself in a position to win, in other words, keeping up on the law, managing your business so that you can stay in practice, managing your relationships, all those things. Also, being good to yourself because burnout is a real thing in criminal defense work. I mean, you know, you get to 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, people get tired. You know, it's hard to, like I said, there's a lot of ups and downs in criminal defense work.

You know, I think keeping yourself in a position where you are able to walk through those doors, those doors to success, that's the key. I don't think that there's any real finish line here. 

Louis Goodman 26:57 

What keeps you up at night? 

Cherie Wallace 26:58 

Fear that I won't be good enough. I think about my cases all the time, because of that, you know, I do Sudoku and other things to try and untie because the way I describe it is having nots in my mind. And I use puzzles and things to untie those knots. I worry about all my cases. Even the cases where I know I have an artful creative defense, I know that I have a great theory. I still worry because like I said, it's a human system. I can't control all the aspects of it. And you know, I worry all the time.

Am I going to do the best job possible for this person? Because if I fail them, the repercussions are just, they're almost too much to think about sometimes. 

Louis Goodman 27:41 

Let's say you came into some real money, three or four billion dollars. What, if anything would do differently in your life? 

Cherie Wallace 27:51 

I hope nothing. I mean, I think that's the trick, right? I think that money comes into your life and I think it, the object is not to let it change you, you know. I would definitely start college funds for my kids, set them up with houses so that in this crazy place called the Bay Area, they would actually be able to have a home of their own, which for most employers nowadays isn't even something that they contemplate. I mean, those are the things I would do. And then maybe life experiences. I, you know, I want my children to be able to travel, you know, My father, I don't know that he's ever, I think he's left the state of California once or twice in his life, and he's 80 years old. You know, I want my children to be able to see the world, you know, that would be something special I would do with the money. I'd show them all the beautiful mysteries of life that I could, that I could find for them. 

Louis Goodman 28:49 

Let's say you had a magic wand. What was one thing in the world, legal or otherwise that you could change. What would that be? 

Cherie Wallace 28:57 

I guess if I could end all war, that would be something I would do. But honestly, I think I would just, I would do it. I'd pull the trigger. I'm sorry, Elon Musk. I would restructure the wealth of the world. I would spread it out.

Louis Goodman 29:12 

If someone wants to contact you professionally, because they have a case that they wanted to talk to you about or refer to you or wanted to hire you as their attorney. What's the best way to get in touch with you?

Cherie Wallace 29:30 

You can email me at C R Wallace, that's crwallace@bayareacrimlaw.com . You can call me on my cell phone. I give my cell phone out. My clients use it at all hours of the day and night. So why not you too? 415 290 2560. 

Louis Goodman 29:50 

Is there anything you wanna talk about that we haven't covered? 

Cherie Wallace 29:54 

No, I just wanna thank you. I think it's so great for people to speak to criminal defense lawyers here and there, because so often, you know, I think there's misconceptions about who we are and what we do. You know, we are people who help people. We are people who believe in the constitution. You know, we are people who deeply care about the system being fair. That's who we are. And I want people to know that because you know, what we do is really important. 

Louis Goodman 30:21 

Cherie Wallace, thank you so much for joining me today on the Love Thy Lawyer podcast. It's been a pleasure to talk to you. 

Cherie Wallace 30:27 

Thank you so much for having me, been a pleasure to be here with you. 

Louis Goodman 30:31 
 That's it for today's episode of Love Thy Lawyer. If you enjoyed listening, please share it with a friend and follow the podcast. If you have comments or suggestions, send me an email. Take a look at our website at lovethylawyer.com where you can find all of our episodes, transcripts, photographs, and information.
 
 

Thanks to my guests and to Joel Katz for music, Bryan Matheson for technical support, Paul Robert for social media and Tracy Harvey. I'm Louis Goodman.

Cherie Wallace 31:08 

It's definitely something that fuels me. And at the same time, terrifies me a little bit.