Dave Jackson - School of Podcasting

Louis Goodman  

Welcome to Love Thy Lawyer. I'm your host, Louis Goodman. We're doing something a bit different today. I have the privilege of talking to someone who is not a lawyer, and actually has no direct connection to the legal community. I'm interviewing him anyway. Think of it this way, If you had a podcast that interviewed drummers, and you got the chance to interview Paul McCartney, would you turn it down, just because he's not a drummer. My guest does have an incredible ability to communicate, educate and connect with people. And those are skills that attorneys, attorneys like me can use. In 2005, Dave Jackson launched the school of podcasting. The show has over two and a half million downloads. He is the author of Profit From Your Podcast, a book that I've bought, and read and learn from. In 2018, he was inducted into the Academy of Podcasters Hall of Fame. Dave Jackson of the School of podcasting.com. Welcome to Love Thy Lawyer.

Dave Jackson  

Louis, thanks for having me. And you're ready for some fun trivia. I am Paul McCartney. Actually, Paul McCartney actually is a drummer, he played drums on one of the Foo Fighters songs, because he's, he's one of those guys that kind of plays everything. But I get your analogy, though. But that was, as soon as he said that, I was like, I bet he doesn't know Paul McCartney is actually a drummer.

Louis Goodman  

So you'll be telling me that you're actually a lawyer too.

Dave Jackson  

No, I was trying to think I'm thinking like, is there any way to connect me  to law? And I'm like, No, besides getting in trouble when I was young, but that's a whole other podcast.  

Louis Goodman  

 They didn't have a law school at Stark State?

Dave Jackson

 No, they did not. 

Louis Goodman

Dave, would you describe your business and your business model in the services that you provide?

Dave Jackson  

Yeah, it's the actual business model is called freemium. And that's where some people just call it content marketing. And that's where I put out a podcast, they put out a newsletter gives me a chance to kind of showcase my expertise, it gives me a chance to kind of showcase whatever personality I have. And it gives me a chance to interact with my potential customers. The idea is, hey, if this guy's giving this much stuff away for free, I can only imagine what his paid stuff is like. And then along the way, I had some people ask me, do you do one on one consulting? I was like, Yeah, I guess I do now. Sure. What, what can I help you with? And then some people said, I don't want to do the whole editing thing. I understand you teach that. But like, I just want to talk into the microphone. Do you know anybody who could edit this for me? And so I went out and found a team that would edit for me. And I was like, yes. So in some cases, it's interesting because your audience will actually give you business ideas that you had not thought of yet.

Louis Goodman  

Now, you have several podcasts. I just want to say here for my audience who may not be as familiar with the podcasting world as I am, and I'm not as familiar with it, as you are. When you get into podcasting, all of a sudden, you drop into this, this whole new world. And it's kind of like when you become a lawyer, all of a sudden you meet a lot of lawyers, you get into podcasting and meet a lot of people in the podcasting world. And as I got into the podcasting world, your name and your program, and your school just kept coming up over and over again. And that is why I really am so excited about talking to you. I have one pet podcast, but you've been podcasting for quite some time. And you have several podcasts that deal with a lot of personal issues. I know you have one that deals with weight loss, you have one that's called Building a Better Dave, you do the podcasters roundtable. I wonder if you could just kind of talk a little bit about those podcasts. And what prompted you to do them and what you get out of them?

Dave Jackson  

Yeah, it's kind of funny. When I first got into podcasting, any hobby, I had got a podcast. So at one point, I think I had probably seven or eight shows going, which is just insane and nuts. And so I had one called Weekly Web Tools, because at the time I was designing websites for people. So that was one intervention. I just ran out of stuff to say about that and quit that. The Logical Weight Loss Podcast, I started because I wanted the Internet to be my accountability partner. And it kind of worked. When I first started that show. I lost some weight. And then it turns out, I didn't lose it. It was right over there. So I gained it back and I lost it. And I'm actually right now in the process of transitioning that to a new host because I've just said, “ How many times can I say eat less and exercise more,” but that's what I did that for. And I liked that particular show, especially the reason why I've kept doing it is it's got a pretty decent sized audience because well, we could all probably drop 20 pounds. And so, but that's the other one. Building a Better Day originally was started, because at the time, I had been divorced for a while. And I thought, you know what, I'm going to try online dating. And I bet there'll be a ton of stories along the way. I don't do it to make money, I'm not trying to get it's just it's just me being creative. It now I kind of use it to sharpen my storytelling skills. So it's more of a just a tool now as a storyteller, which is why there's rarely an episode until I kind of come up with something but so that's that one. It's been more almost a therapy thing was kind of funny. When I first started it, I was going to work blue, because I had not done that. And the minute I did it, all of my community, what do you do when that's not you? And that's when I was like, Alright, listen, learn, be yourself. Don't try to be something you're not. So  that was that one and the podcasters roundtable. One of the things that's great about podcasting is you're going to attract people that like your content. And so I started going to all these different events, and I met people like Ray Ortega, and Daniel J. Lewis, and many, many other EVO Tara, David Hooper, I could go on. These are all people that technically, are my competition. They are other podcast consultants. But on the other hand, who else can you geek out about podcasting with than other podcast consultants? So Ray Ortega is a friend of mine, as is Daniel J. Lewis. And at the time, Google Hangouts had just I think that's what they were calling it at the time had just come on board. And we would always have these great conversations anytime you got to be in the same room together. And Ray would always say, man, we should be recording this, this would be a great podcast. So when Google Hangouts came out, we were at an event and he's like, Hey, this new thing where we can get together online, he goes, I want to get together online and record it and call the podcasters roundtable on a mic. So you want me to show up and talk about podcasting? And he's like, Yep, I'm like I'm in. I'm like, that's all I need to know. And so what was interesting about that is I would tell my audience, hey, new podcasters roundtable, Ray would tell his audience, and Daniel would tell his audience, and what was great about it is we grew, everybody grew their audience, because in some cases, they only knew about Daniel, and Ray. And likewise, my audience got to hear about Daniel and Ray. And so I would have people that would sign up at the School of Podcasting. And I always ask them, How did you find me like, Oh, I heard you on the roundtable. So if I thought of them as competition, and so no, no, no, I'm you, you know, you're the enemy. It's not radio, where if we're all on Monday through Friday, 730 to 10. That's a different story. But you can listen to me on Monday, listen to Ray on Tuesday, and listen to Daniel on Wednesday. So it's been a lot of fun.

Louis Goodman  

Oh, I get that, you know, the people that I talked to are primarily lawyers, and they are primarily lawyers who I know. And they are my friends, but they are also very much my competition. But I'm happy to talk to them. I think it's fun to talk to them. And I don't know, if somebody listens to one of my competitors and goes out and hires that lawyer. I'm okay with that.

Dave Jackson  

If you're not going to use me, I want you to use somebody who's going to steer you in the right direction. So please go use Daniel or Ray or something like that. So I'd rather have you go to one of those guys.

Louis Goodman  

How long have you actually been podcasting?

Dave Jackson  

Since 2005, I started in my first episode was April, I want to say the 5th of 2005. And I had a friend of mine, because at the time I was teaching, a lot of I was actually a teacher in the corporate world. And I was teaching on a Microsoft Office and Time Management and QuickBooks and stuff like that. And I had been online, I had a newsletter for musicians at the time. And I had some community of musicians, but this one guy was really into marketing. And he came back from a conference and he said, You know how you missed the MySpace boat, which kind of tells you how long ago this was? And I said, yeah, don't rub it in. He's like I was at this event. He goes, I'm here to tell you the next big thing is going to be podcasting. And I remember I Googled it. And there was one and a half pages. And I was like, I think it broke the internet. There's nothing about this topic online. And when I finally pieces parted one together and I remember upload  my audio file, and I started this other software, and I saw it come down and I was like, oh, wait a minute, I see what this does. And that's when I knew alright, this has some potential. So I started a podcast for musicians was my first original podcast. And then I got a voicemail from a guy in Nuremberg, Germany, and I went, wait, why? I was like, there's some guy on the other side of the planet that not only found my podcast, but likes it, and that's when I just grabbed my flag. And I was like, this scratches every itch I have. It's kind of geeky. You can be as creative as you want. And for me, you can help people. And I was like that scratches every itch I have.

Louis Goodman  

I think it probably also scratches the entertainer, part of you as well, because I think that one thing about lawyers and podcasters and musicians and I know that you are a journeymen musician is that, you know,  there's something about being in front of an audience, being on a stage of some sort that appeals to us.

Dave Jackson  

Yeah, it's being in front of an audience and trying to motivate them in some way or another, you know, whether it's to be happy or to, you know, vote for my clients in the right way. Whatever it is, we're trying to influence people in one way or another. So yeah, I could definitely see that.

Louis Goodman  

Now, you're originally from Akron, Ohio, where you currently live. Is that correct? 

Dave Jackson

Yeah. 

Louis Goodman

Well, it really is a really beautiful place. And there's a think it's a national park, very close to Akron. And there's rivers and there's trees, and it really is people. You know, I've spent a fair amount of time in Ohio, my sister went to Overland I had a very good friend that went to the College of Wooster. And so I know that Ohio and Akron specifically is really beautiful.

Dave Jackson  

Yeah, aside from the occasional tornado that'll blow through. We don't have to worry about hurricanes or anything catching on fire or anything like that. It's pretty mild. We get all four seasons, and you know, and occasionally you'll get the bad winter that you're like, Okay, I think I'm trying to move to North Carolina, but that's about  one every five years. You're like, Okay, I've had enough of this. No, but it's really not that bad. I love it.

Louis Goodman  

What were you like in high school?

Dave Jackson  

I’m very, very shy. It's hard to believe.  Once I became your friend, I was fine. But actually my very first job, aside from being a paper boy, I got hired at a grocery store. And I got fired after about a month because I just wouldn't talk to anybody. I was very shy to talk to customers. And so I went in, I actually got that job through my high school. I took it because it was a business class. So I wanted to learn about business. And really, it was more of a I want to get a job kind of class, I was kind of bummed that I I missed half my all the fun stuff, all the choir and stuff that I was in, because I was only in school half a day, and then I'd go to work. But it was funny, because I went back in to school and the teacher of that business class. He's like, Hey, I heard you got let go. And I said, Yeah, and he goes, they just said,  you're too shy. And I go, Well, yeah, I kind of am. And he's like, Alright, I'm gonna tell you something. Here he goes, because I'm going to get you another job. And I was like, Okay, great. And then the thing that really, I still remember I was I had to take a speech class, which when you're introverted is like, you got to be kidding me. And I forget, I don't remember what the first speech was about. But I remember I made some people laugh. And I went, Oh, hold on a second. This could be, this could be fun. And so for me, it was just it was like, Okay, you get three minutes to pretend you're on the show. And every speech was just me trying to make people laugh. And that kind of helped that I was like, alright,  you know, people aren't gonna throw tomatoes at you and things like that. I still, it's kind of funny, because there are certain situations where I will still revert back into my shell.

Louis Goodman  

After you graduated from high school,  you went to Stark State,  did you just start coming out of your shell a little bit?

Dave Jackson  

Yeah, by the end of high school, I was a little better because that was my job was 16. So for the next two years, I started kind of coming out. I played the guitar at a couple talent shows. And that was kind of again, I got people to like, hey, that guy's pretty cool. So I was convinced everyone hated me. And so all of a sudden, I found out that, you know, if I actually talked to people, they might actually like you. Yeah, Stark State was one I remember. It was just one of those things where it was kind of cool, because nobody did know you. And so I was like, okay, I can come in afterwards without any baggage I had from these people knowing me for 12 years, I could kind of reinvent myself. So I just kind of tried to be the more outgoing guy. And then I ended up being the editor of the student newsletter, a teacher that kind of ran that the professor just heard me, you know, making people laugh. And he goes, You should be a writer for the newsletter, and I'm like, What do you mean, he goes, Do you think he could review movies? And I was like, Yeah, you gotta pay for the movie. It's like, Yeah, I'm like, Don. And so  that got me involved in. That was my first year there. And the next year, everybody else had graduated. And he's like, you're the editor. He's like, you're the only person left. So I definitely started coming out of my shell a little bit in college.

Louis Goodman  

Though, before I went to law school, I worked for a while in the music industry. So I'm curious about your experience in the music industry and your guitar playing.

Dave Jackson  

I remember the fun part was,  I would play in bars and I wasn't old enough to get in.   I remember once I'm sitting there because this is the 80s kids. So I've got my zebra striped shirt on and the bandana hurts. And they're like, and I'm like honest, I'm with the band. And they're like, I don't know, let me your ID says you're not old enough. So the drummer would have to come out go,  no seriously, he's with us. So I played a lot of,  I've played in just about any kind of band you can be in. I've played oldies, I've played heavy metal, I've played country, I've played blues, you know, you name it. I've kind of played it. But I grew up playing a lot of hard rock. And then once I got out of college, I met some guys at a job I was working at, and they're like, do you want to play country? And I thought that was like one of the signs of the apocalypse. Like Dave Jackson, a country. And they played it for me, I go, that's not country. I go, that's buggy with a twang and they're like, oh, it's new country. I'm like, well, whatever it is, I can play it.

Louis Goodman  

Now you also have had experience in education, specifically in corporate education. And that's an area that I'd never really given much thought to.  Tell us a little bit about corporate education. What that is?

Dave Jackson  

Yeah, I fell into it. I add of my original degree that I got from Stark State was in electronic engineering. So I was a copier technician. I wasn't a very good one, to be honest with you. I mean, I was okay. But I knew the manager at the time. And again, by the time I'm somewhat outgoing. And I would just talk to him like he was a guy like, Hey, did you see the game on Sunday? And everybody's like, Oh, you talked to Greg? And I'm like, Well, yeah, Greg's pretty cool if you talk to him. And so Greg, great kind of saw, I had the gift of gab. And he says, Look, we have a problem. We have a great sales staff, we have a great service staff, but our customers are breaking our equipment. So we want you to go out, set up the equipment with your technical background. And we want you to teach them how to run the equipment. But more importantly, we want you to show them how to not run the equipment. And by doing that, we cut down a lot of what we used to call Mickey Mouse service calls, you'd go in and press a button. So that got me into that. And then they're like, Well, do you know anything about computers? And I'm like, Well, I used one in college. And so that got me into teaching a lot of Microsoft Office. And that same company, they had a division that worked in the newspaper industry. So I went all around the country, teaching people how to use these giant scanners,  etc. And so when that job finally fell through, I had been podcasting for 10 years. And I knew some people at the company I work for now, which is Libsyn. And I called him up and I said, Hey, this could be a really awkward conversation. He's like, what's going on? I go, Well, I got good news and bad news. He's like, I'll take the bad news. Like, I just lost my job. And he goes, and the good news is  I go, I'm available to work for you. And I said, I told you, this could be awkward. He goes, No,  I'm actually kind of glad to hear that. And he's like, What are you doing the rest of the day, and I go, I literally just lost my job. And I go, probably laundry. And he's like, Well, let me see if I can get the president to call you back. So 20 minutes later, I was doing a phone interview with the President of the company and been there now five years.   I work from home, and they're based out of Pittsburgh, and it's still kind of training. It's tech support. So I'm now training people kind of one on one versus a classroom. 

Louis Goodman  

Well, you just mentioned Libsyn.  Libsyn is a podcasting hosting company, I happen to use Buzzsprout, which is one of their competitors. And I'm just wondering if you could explain to people what podcast hosting is because I, certainly to me, before I got into podcasting, it was pretty opaque. And I didn't really understand all these little steps. And having a good podcasting host, like Libsyn, or Buzzsprout, is, in my view, really critical to successful podcast.

Dave Jackson  

Yeah, it is the basement that you build your podcast on. So  most of us are familiar with websites, but websites are typically images and text, which, when you boil them down to like the size of a file, like on your computer, they're very, very tiny. And so people will see a web host. And we'll say unlimited bandwidth, meaning you can have as much stuff on it and get as many visitors as you want. And unlimited storage. So it sounds like we could just use this for my podcast. But you can't, because a typical podcast file will be somewhere between maybe 30 megabytes versus the kilobytes for text and images. And when you upload that, and then all of a sudden, as you get popular, you have all these people trying to grab that mp3 file at the same time. So the server has to go, here's your copy, here's your copy, here's your copy that whole nine yards. And so a web host is not set up to do that with this big file. And it's not the bandwidth, it's not the storage, it's that you are making this poor little server just go and it can't keep up where a media host is designed to do that exact thing. So we basically send out the file. There's a  technical, I'm not going to get too technical here, but in radio, you have a frequency so here in Ohio 97.5 is really popular in podcasting, you have a thing called a feed. And that's kind of what people tune into, you basically go in, and you have a connection with Apple and Google and Spotify and all the other different directories. But when somebody hits play behind the scenes, it's like tuning into your radio station. And so we Syndicate, your podcast, throughout the internet all across the globe. And that's what Libsyn is kind of short for,  it's liberated, syndication, you put them together, and it's Libsyn. Then we basically track all the stats for you. So you can see what's working and what's not. And then our goal is to make it just as easy as possible to get set up and get going and get you listed in all the different places that have audio. So your Iheart and Amazon and audible and Apple and Google and all the other fun filled places. But that's it in a nutshell, we are the person between you and your listeners, and we make sure that when somebody hits play or download, that file is delivered.

Louis Goodman  

And then it is that platform and that company that ultimately does that distribution so that when you pick up your iPhone, or your Android or whatever device you're using, and you look in Spotify, or iTunes, or Apple podcasts, or, you know, whatever it is that you're using that distributes that feed out to all of those different ways to listen to a podcast.

Dave Jackson  

Yeah, I always say in a nutshell, whether it's Apple or Google or Spotify, all those are, there's actually nothing in them. They are just mirrors of whoever your media host is, whether it's Buzzsprout or Captivate or Libsyn or whoever, so that when you update something in your media host, within 24 hours, those apps are going to reflect those changes. So when they hit play behind the scenes, it's like, Oh, I know where the audio file is here. And it starts coming through your speakers.

Louis Goodman  

Now you have the School of Podcasting. That is really kind of your main profession these days. Is that correct?

Dave Jackson  

Yeah, it's when I got hired at Libsyn. I was still married because I was going to just do the School of Podcasting full time. And my ex wife was like, no, no, you're going to get  a real job. So now it's just a super duper serious side hustle. But it's one of those things where if you do what you love for a living, it's not really a job. You know, my sister in law always joke, she's like, you're always in your office. I'm like, I'm really just playing. I know, it looks like work, but I'm really just having fun. 

Louis Goodman  

Well, what is it that you really love about teaching podcasting?

Dave Jackson  

I think there are a couple things going back to the days when I was an introvert.  I know what it's like to feel like you're the only person on the planet that feels this way. And you're kind of reserved, and that whole nine yards. So I kind of like to help.   I help a lot of people come out of their shell.   I have a student right now that's fought in wars, and he's a pilot and all this other stuff. But he was kind of worried about putting himself out there. So a lot of times, it's not the technology that stops people. It's what I call the imposter syndrome, where they're like, Well, why would anybody listen to me? And I'm like, oh, trust me, people will listen to you. So I think that's part of it. And just the fact that I get to about the time I think I've heard everything. Somebody's got Oh, yeah, my podcast is about chameleon breeding. And you're like, Wait, did you say chameleon breeding? They're like, Yep, so that's always kind of fun. And just the, I guess the social aspect of it in a way again, it's just getting to meet people. And I think one of the things when I worked at one of the corporate jobs, they had a segment where I would help people get their GED, which was really for me, when I had somebody come in, and they say, math and I are just not friends. I'm never going to be able to do that. And like, trust me, check this out. I'm going to show you how to do this. And so that always has been super rewarding. I've had people Marcy Rosenbaum from Florida, I never will forget her. She joined and she's like, I'm never gonna be able to do this. Technology is my enemy.  I just said, we're going to take  baby steps. Trust me, you're going to be an apple someday. Oh, it's never going to work. But I'm going to try but whatever, you know, and I remember I started doing one on one consulting with her. So she called me up. And she's crying and I'm like Marcy, what's the matter? What's going on? She's like, Oh, man, I toads. And I was like, Yeah, I told you to be a couple days. No, I mean,  I told you. You told me I could do what I told you. I could and she was just amazed that she gets so that kind of stuff puts a lot of gas in my tank when I take somebody that's like, and then once they started the person, that's a pilot. He launched this podcast, and it's just going gangbusters. And I said, I told you people will like you have great stories. And I said the whole pilot all these other pilots are going to listen to your stories because they remember what it was like when you did this. And so that I think is kind of fun too, because it's like watching a movie with somebody and you know the ending and so you get to instead of watching the movie, you get to watch them. Watch the Movie. So that's kind of fun as well. And then the other thing, if you're going to be any kind of consultant is, it just keeps you in the habit of constantly learning. Because when I was in the corporate world, I was constantly having to learn the new versions of the software as it came out and things like that. So with podcasting, there's always new resources and tools and strategies and about the time you think he got that down. Well, let's learn SEO and because that needs part of marketing, and that whole nine yards so it's just something that in for me, it doesn't get boring, I guess is the bottom line.

Louis Goodman  

Would you recommend going into the podcasting industry for a young person who was just coming out of college? And if so, where does one enter into the podcasting world in a money making capacity?

Dave Jackson  

Money Making is a fun one. But what, let's start with the first one, what I advise absolutely.   I do a show on Saturday morning, called Ask the Podcast Coach,  where you just it's basically free podcast consulting, and my co host for that has a daughter who's in journalism. So she's starting a podcast, because in the same way that right now for every 2000 blogs, there is one podcast. And so how do you stand out you do a podcast, because I have a screen that I show in a lot of my presentations that shows Cleveland Browns stadium, we refer to that as the factory of sadness, but it's got 73,000 people in it. And I said, you know, if I said, Can we have all the podcasters on the field, there'd be 37 people? And I said, so which audience is it easier to get found in the website world or the podcast world? So that would be that and plus, it's a great resume builder. You know, it's a way to show that hey, I can  produce things on a regular basis, I'm reliable. If it sounds good and professional, you know,  it just shows that I'm kind of a go getter, which every, you know, applicant always says, Oh, I'm a self starter. I'm a go getter. Well, okay. But when you say I've got a podcast I've been I was hired once at a college, I got hired at Chancellor University. Why? Because I knew how to podcast. And they're like, oh, so when you put that on your resume that's gonna make you stand out than other people. The fun part is making money with a podcast. And so I said, I started the School of Podcasting because I wanted to make money. Well, the problem was, I didn't have an audience, I had a few I had a musician, audience. And there is a reason they're called starving artists, those people had no money. And so you have to build your audience first before you can monetize. And so that's the problem is when you first start out to do a podcast, depending on what the topic is. And that's always the default answer to every podcast question is? Well, it depends because it does. There's all sorts of different variables and things like that. But when you first start off first you have  to attract an audience. And that's not as easy as it sounds, because that's what you're going to monetize with the people that are following you, after you've built a relationship with them. And nobody likes to hear this answer. But when I did my research for my book, the people that were making, you know, sizable income, it took them about three years to build an audience. And when somebody's starting a podcast, and you go, Hey, good job on Episode One, you go keep doing that for another three years. And they're like, what, I want money now. And it's like, yeah, you'll get some money. But it takes a while. And again, it depends. But that's the thing. I always tell people, if you're starting your podcast, to make money now, just go play the lottery, it's probably just as good odds. And that's why statistically, for decades now, people do about six or seven episodes, and then they quit. Because A, they realize it's harder than it looks, it takes more time than they thought it was going to. And I'm not making a dime. And so they quit, which is fine, because it separates the, you know, the real people from the people there just thought it'd be fun or whatever.

Louis Goodman  

You wrote your book Profit From Your Podcast and one of the things that I've heard you say about it is, I didn't say this book was how to make a million dollars from your podcast in two weeks. I said the name of the book is Profit From Your Podcast.   Profiting from a podcast can take many different forms. And I know you and I have talked a little bit before we got on this call.   You know, I told you that my Profit From My Podcast is just that I really enjoy doing it. I'm not beholden to anybody as a result of it. I can do whatever I want. I don't have to interview anybody I don't want to interview and I can interview anybody that I do want to interview and yeah, and I mean, I think it's probably helped my, you know, networking and community standing and that sort of thing a little bit. But I mean, for the most part,  my profit is that I really enjoy doing it. And, I'm not taking any advertising. I've been offered some but I just want to say to you that that it really, that reading your book kind of allowed me to recognize that that's what my profit was.

Dave Jackson  

You're getting paid in fun and networking and that networking can really pay off people. This sounds like I'm making it up, but it is absolutely true. There was at the time, one of the biggest conferences was the New Media Expo, and it was blogging, it was podcasting, it was video, all this stuff. And the person that was running their podcast track had stepped down. So the guy that ran it called Blueberry, and said, Hey, we were looking for somebody to pick up the podcast track, who do you think would be a good guy? And Todd Cochran, who I've known for years, I don't know what about Dave Jackson from The School of Podcasting. And then they called Rob Greenlee, who now works for Libsyn, but at the time he worked at Spreaker. And Rob Greenlee said, I don't know what about Dave Jackson from The School of Podcasting. And then they called Rob Walsh, this was before I worked at Libsyn, and he said, I don't know what about Dave Jackson from The School of Podcasting.  So  by having all those guys on my show, and networking with them, when I went to events, they knew me, they again, it was kind of a resume. And so the guy finally called me and offered me the job, and he's like, I'd call somebody else, but apparently everybody's gonna give me the same answer. So that is a way to get yourself out there, establish your reputation. And like you said, you kind of get paid in fun, because if it's not fun, quit doing it. Because that's gonna come across the mic, you know, you can definitely build your network. And if you're trying to sell a product or service, don't just do interviews, do solo shows and talk to that invisible person sitting across the table from you. And that will grow your influence. So solo shows, grow your influence, interview shows, grow your network.

Louis Goodman  

What do you think's the best advice that you've ever received?

Dave Jackson  

Besides the act the way you want to be, and someday you'll be you act, that's probably be one of them. Hmm. That's probably it really fake it till you make it was something that  and then just for lack of a better phrase, get out of the boat, you know, you're not, there's only one way to know if a recipe is good or not. And that's to make it. And so for me, I have, especially in the last few years, have started doing things, like I'm deathly afraid of heights, and I went up in a hot air balloon. And it was like, just off and it's like, okay, this is either gonna kill me, or I'm gonna have a really cool story. And so I've kind of tried to step outside of my comfort zone. And so that's just something I'm kind of doing because it does,  you'll either end up with, you know, you'll either end up with success. And if it goes horrible, well, you're gonna have a fun story to laugh about, as long as you didn't lose a limb or something like that. So get out of the boat, sometimes you got to get out and see what's going on. And, you know, get on your water skis, or whatever you're doing.

Louis Goodman  

How do you define success?

Dave Jackson  

Hmm, that's a good question. I know, there's a fun, like bumper sticker, about wanting what you have, instead of, or having, because some people think I have to.   There's so many things we want in successes when you already, is when you want what you have, I guess so you're not thinking anymore. I think it's defined differently. by different again, it depends. So for me, I get almost as much gratification from that one person that says I didn't think I could do it, and you talk me through it, I can't believe it. That gives me a huge amount of, you know, I can't spend that at the grocery store. But I feel like in some way, a very small part of my thumbprint is now on that person's life. And I've set them in a different direction. And as a teacher, that's kind of what you want. So I think that's kind of how I define success. And then there's always the fact that I mean, I don't make a ton of money. But you know, I can like today, I went to Amazon and spent 50 bucks and didn't really blink an eye I was like, Okay, I need this and this and that. And I didn't even go to the checking account to make sure I'm not bouncing checks, because I remember those days, I've been poor, and I've been broke, and there's a difference. And so that's, that's kind of nice to have.  Then there's the three legs of podcasting. So you have to have support from your family, your whoever it is, because if they're just nagging you, that's going to kill your attitude. And that's the second leg of the stool, you have to have the right attitude of I can do this and that and then the third one is your health. And if you don't have your health, well then your attitudes gonna die. If you don't have the right attitude, well then you could be as healthy as you know, as you want to be but your attitudes like I don't want to do this. So those are the three things your attitude, your health, and then the support of those around you when you can get all those plates spinning. I think that's a pretty good definition of success, because it's not easy to get them all going in the right direction.

Louis Goodman  

What about recreational pursuits talking about health? There are things that you do to kind of clear your head when you walk out of that studio.

Dave Jackson  

Yeah, I have, you can't see, but I usually have a guitar within arm's length because there are times when you have to deal with whether it's family, friends, customers that you're like, Okay, I need some aspirin right now. And for me, my aspirin is six strings right next to me. So  that will calm me down. I really like hiking a lot, especially now that Fall is here.  I was out the last couple of weeks walking around in parks, I just love it. I love to ride my bike.   I have a bike in Ohio, where we used to have the Ohio Erie Canal that connected and they would drive you know, canal boat up and the donkeys would pull the boat on a cable. Well, where the donkeys used to walk is now a bike path. And that's absolutely gorgeous. So I just love to hit that a few times a year. And then just probably one of my other favorite titles is that of uncle. And so I've got three nieces and nephews that think their uncle's pretty cool at this point, because they're young, they haven't figured once they get to teenagers, they get away from the old man. But they're just a ton of fun, and you never know what to expect. So their always a lot of fun to play with.

Louis Goodman  

What sort of things keep you up at night? 

Dave Jackson  

That's where you get into the weird ego stuff. You know, like, I want to be the podcast guy.   I want to be king of podcasting. And so I'm always thinking like, Oh, I could do this. And I start thinking about SEO and different tools. And if I did that, so  it's the marketing mind of that. And I think part of that is my mom died when I was 24. And so I learned that lesson real quick that you're only on this planet for a certain number of days. And from that point forward, like it or not, I am a bit of a workaholic, because I'm always like, I got to take every ounce of every second and this and that. So I don't have a hard time sleeping because I usually have already stayed up longer than I should have. So that's something I'm trying to do now. I actually have my phone yells at me at like 11 o'clock, would you please start thinking about going to bed? So yeah, that's that. And just right now, I think a better question is I'm worried well, then this is great for lawyers the truth. You know, we're, that's kind of our goal is to figure out what happened and who did what to who. And I'm worried with things like deep fake videos that you can almost make people say things and do things that they weren't even in the room. And I kind of missed the days when our Congress, you used to have to provide both sides of the story and somewhere. And Congress, they kind of let that do that. So I'm worried that our news is becoming more entertainment than actual education. Because if we lose track of what's true, it is crazy. I still believe there's good in everybody. In fact, I think, I think right now, we all are not as divided as the news says we are.   If you watch TV, we all hate each other and we want to collaborate over club each other over the head. And I'm like, I don't see that when I go out in public. So I think that's something that keeps me up at night.

Louis Goodman  

Let's say you came into some real money, a few billion dollars, $3/$4 billion. What, if anything, would you do differently in your life?

Dave Jackson  

It's funny because people go, would you still work? Probably, I don't know that I would, I probably would quit my job at Libsyn and just do like The School of Podcasting full time. Because at that point, I don't need health benefits. I think I'm good to go with a few billion in the bank. Boy, it would be fun just to, you know it, I always love it. When I'll pick on Bono. You know, Bono wants to rid the world of hunger. And I'm like, you know, if you took like, I don't know, 20% of what you made off that tour bond, we could probably make a dent in world hunger. So I think that would be kind of fun to maybe be a little philanthropic. Because again, my I learned when my dad passed away that if especially if you end up in a nursing home, they're going to suck every penny out of you, before you kick it off the planet. So I was like, well, if they're going to end up if I'm going to end up in a nursing home, unless I come up with some creative ways to hide my money. I'm not taking it with me. So I might as well do as much good as I can with it while I'm on the planet.

Louis Goodman  

Let's say you had like a really big microphone, you know, let's say 60 seconds on the Super Bowl. What would you like to say to the world in that forum?

Dave Jackson  

Find somebody you disagree with, sit down, and then count how many things you have in common. One of my best friends that I know through the internet is a devout atheist and I am a devout,  I am a big fan of God and Jesus. And I just don't preach about it all the time. But that's the way I was raised. And it works for me. And it's interesting, because we're both musicians, we're both podcasters. We both have kind of a dark sense of humor. And if I cut that guy out of my life, because he doesn't think I do well that I'd be losing a really good friendship and he knows that I know that he knows that. I know that we end there. That's just one conversation we don't have because I'm not going to change his mind. He's not going to change my mind. And consequently you focus on what you have in common, instead of trying to just change everybody else's mind, and you end up with a really cool friend. So that would be I don't know if I can say that in 30 seconds or not. But I think that's where I would head because it's just something that, you know, I just see the whole cancel culture needs to be turned into the council culture and talk to each other.

Louis Goodman  

Well, you brought up the subject of church. I know that in your podcast every once in a while you say, Okay, we're having a warning. Now, this is a big sky buddy moment. And because I know that you're, I mean, to me, it signals that you're sensitive to people who are not religious. And you, you know, as you've just said, are somewhat religious. And I'm wondering if you could just talk about that aspect of your life a little bit.

Dave Jackson  

Yeah, it was something, you know, on one hand, if I'm an atheist, I'm going to say, well, Dave's brainwashed because he's heard this from the minute he was born, I was born and raised in a church. So what happened was, I used to have a podcast called Feeding My Faith, where it was just me kind of sharing little stories. And I was trying to be again, it sounds weird, but bring humor into maybe something that was a little more spiritual. And so I played a promo for it on The School of Podcasting. And so this guy sent in a voicemail that said, Hey, man, I tuned in to learn about podcasting, and then tune in to hear about your invisible sky buddy. So I was like, Oh, I love that invisible sky buddy. Awesome. And so the next episode, I kind of address that. I said, Look, here's the deal. I don't bring up God. hardly at all in this show. That was just a promo for my other show. Where if you like the God thing, go listen to that one. And if you don't want then don't, and so I just love the phrase invisible sky buddy. So anytime I do anything that's remotely gonna, if I interview somebody that's from a religious program, or something like that, I always throw up the Diogo horn and like invisible sky buddy alerts, you know, just so if somebody is like, Oh, this guy's gonna talk about God. And like, well, I warned you. So that's where that came from.

Louis Goodman  

I found it really interesting at the beginning of this discussion, where you said that you had some podcasts where you worked blue, and it didn't really work out for you. In other words, you know, using profanity and that sort of thing. I've heard you talk about profanity as used in podcasts. And you know, some people work in profanity, like Michelangelo worked in ceilings. I've sort of  always avoided it in my podcast, and I've always avoided it when I'm speaking publicly, because in court, you really can't use that kind of language. You may want to but you're better off not. And I just wonder if you comment about that a little bit. 

Dave Jackson  

Yeah  it's something I remember once I was in an event. And I said the S word to, we're sitting around with a bunch of friends. And a friend of mine is like, I've never heard you swear. And I was like, Well, I don't do it a lot. I'm like, but you know, come on. And so for me, if you swear in one episode, and you mark that one episode, as explicit, there's a list of about 13 countries that even though it's just one episode will, Apple will remove you from that directory. So I was like, Okay, well, my goal is to reach as many people as I want, so I can find a more creative way to say that, so but I'm not of the elk. A lot of people like oh, it's one of those religious guys who doesn't like swear words, I'm like, now to me. I'm also a guy that loves storytelling and language and words. So I'm kind of like George Carlin, that way that I really love words. And for me, it the other thing I like about not swearing, it does make you in some cases get more creative. Like, okay, I really want to say like, Okay, but what can I say instead, that will still show that I'm tpassionate about this particular topic. So that's kind of the other aspect. I kind of like about it. It's like, okay, I know, I want to say mm hmm, here, but like, what if I, it's a better way of saying this. So it makes me it's a little force creation exercise.

Louis Goodman  

When I first started listening to you, I sort of thought,   maybe I still do that, that you're kind of a little corny, and that's okay. You know, I mean, there's nothing wrong with that. But I just kind of hear that. And I don't know, it's just it's more of a comment than a question. I don't know whether you have any comment back on that.

Dave Jackson  

One. It's one of those things where you have to be yourself. In fact, I'm going to talk about this in a future episode. So sometimes, being yourself is what will actually endear people and I used to say this when I was in junior high, and I was again, super introverted, but some people didn't like the way I was. I was like, if you don't like me the way I am then don't like me. It's just you have to kind of be comfortable with that, which is hard because we all want to be liked by everyone. But I just the goofiness I think just comes from being, I don't know if it's being the youngest and trying to get everybody's attention or what I remember. Just anytime I could make anybody laugh, I was like, Oh, I'm goofy, the laugh and you just have to realize that just be yourself because it's really easy to do. If you try to be somebody else, which I hear people do on a regular basis. I mean, this is how I talk. And those people that are like you will like you and the people that don't won't and that's okay.

Louis Goodman  

Anything you want to talk about that we haven't discussed? 

Dave Jackson

No, not really.

This has been fun. Some good thoughtful questions made me think.

Louis Goodman  

Dave, I know you know how to do this. Please tell us how we can get in touch with you and The School of Podcasting.

Dave Jackson  

Yeah, everything you need over there is at theschoolofpodcasting.com.   I've got 700 plus episodes, as well as all my contact information. If you want to join my membership site, if you need one on one consulting, everything is there at schoolofpodcasting.com.

Louis Goodman  

Dave Jackson, thank you so much for joining me today on the Love Thy Lawyer podcast. You're not a lawyer, but I sure have enjoyed talking to you.

Dave Jackson  

It's been a blast. Thank you so much.

Louis Goodman  

That's it for today's episode of Love Thy Lawyer. If you enjoyed listening, please share it with a friend and subscribe to the podcast. If you have comments or suggestions, send me an email. I promise I'll respond. Take a look at our website at lovethylawyer.com, where you can find all of our episodes, transcripts, photographs, and information. Thanks as always, to my guests who share their wisdom and Joel Katz for music, Brian Matheson for technical support, and Tracey Harvey.   I’m Louis Goodman

Dave Jackson  

I could kind of identify the people that were there for the advanced stuff. And I would set an advanced person next to a total beginner and I would just say look, the beginning of this. We're going to start off with some basic stuff. You know, can you kind of help I turned them into like little mentors to help the people that were do and that kind of work.