James McElroy - Bay Area Royalty

Louis Goodman / James McElroy – Transcript

[00:00:00] Louis Goodman: Welcome to Love Thy Lawyer, where we talk with attorneys about their lives and careers. I'm your host, Louis Goodman. Today, we welcome James A. McElroy to the podcast. James has worked for the Bayview Hunters Point Foundation for community development. He has been involved as a community defender. He has been a program director for a foundation for youth services, and he currently is in a private practice of law.

I've known James and his family for many years, and it's certainly an honor to speak with him. James McElroy, welcome to Love Thy Lawyer. 

[00:00:39] James McElroy: Thank you, Lou. Thank you for inviting me.

[00:00:42] Louis Goodman: It's such a pleasure to have you, and it's so nice to see you outside of court. I usually see you in court. Where are you speaking to us from right now?

[00:00:50] James McElroy: San Francisco, California. The beautiful city of San Francisco. 

[00:00:56] Louis Goodman: Is that where your office is located, or your home is located? 

[00:00:59] James McElroy: Yes, it is. I'm over on Marcus Street, but I also, I do, you know, like a lot of lawyers now since the pandemic, I do a lot of the work from homes or home office. 

[00:01:11] Louis Goodman: Can you tell us what kind of practice you have? How do you describe your law practice? 

[00:01:17] James McElroy: I do mostly criminal and family law. And, you know, of course, a lot of administrative hearings and things like that, but it's mostly criminal and family. 

[00:01:28] Louis Goodman: I see you all the time in the Alameda County Courts. What counties do you practice in? 

[00:01:35] James McElroy: Well, the thing is, is what I'm sure everybody understands. The Bay Area is very fluid, you know, you know, people in the Bay Area move around to different counties and they get in trouble in a different county. So a lot of my practice is in San Mateo County, but also of course in San Francisco, Solano. And I do a lot of cases in San Joaquin County, too. So, with the Bay Area diaspora that a lot of people have went through, the people who grew up in the Bay Area are now living, you know, Sacramento, San Joaquin. And thank God they still have my number, and they still call me. But, you know, I do all over the Bay Area.

[00:02:21] Louis Goodman: How long have you been practicing law? 

[00:02:23] James McElroy: Since 1991 as a lawyer, but when I was in law school, I was a certified law student for two years. So that gave me a hand up on, you know, going, being comfortable going to court and everything while I was in law school. 

[00:02:41] Louis Goodman: Where are you from originally? 

[00:02:43] James McElroy: San Francisco, California, North Beach.

And then we family moved to Hayward and from Hayward, we lived overseas in the Truk Islands and in Micronesia and in Saipan, Mariana Islands, and then Boston City, California. And after that, I came back home to San Francisco. 

[00:03:05] Louis Goodman: So, where'd you go to high school? 

[00:03:07] James McElroy: Brolin James High School 

[00:03:09] Louis Goodman: Well, we were talking a little bit before we started recording about how your dad worked for the federal government in a number of administrations, you know, sort of just sub cabinet level, and that took you to many different places, some of which you've mentioned. And I know that in talking to your brother on many occasions that you lived in Saipan for a while. And I'm wondering where did that fit in? 

[00:03:36] James McElroy: Well, I went to Saipan when I was in third grade and came back here in the sixth grade. So we were there from 1968 to 1970. 

And, you know, now you go there and it's like going back, if you ever watched the movie, It's a Wonderful Life. When the guy goes back and it's just cassinos and everything. And that's the same in Saipan because I went back in 1995 and, it was very interesting, the development that occurred over those years.

[00:04:12] Louis Goodman: I just briefly mentioned your brother. Your brother is, Mike McElroy and also known as Mick and who I've interviewed for this podcast in the very first season. I also know him through the courts because he was an Alameda County Sheriff's deputy and also a Berkeley police officer. But that's how I knew your brother before I knew you. And that's sort of how I knew a little bit about the Saipan experience. After you graduated from high school, you went to college. Where'd you go? 

[00:04:44] James McElroy: I went to College of San Mateo and, you know, to actually play football. And, you know, they gave me a uniform, but that's about it. But, but yeah, so I went to a college in San Mateo I think it was, one of the best decisions I ever made. Instead of going, I was accepted into San Jose state, it was state colleges, but I wasn't ready. And, so I went to CSM and, focused on just getting my study skills together. together. And I wrote for the newspaper and, you know, got my confidence up then transferred to, University of California, Santa Cruz. And that was a whole other experience, but it was, you know, I liked it. 

[00:05:29] Louis Goodman: Can you do a little compare and contrast between life at Santa Cruz and life in San Mateo? 

[00:05:36] James McElroy: Santa Cruz, you know, it's a very interesting place. It's a very laid-back place and it's a very supportive environment. And I think that's what was important, you know, specifically that, UC Santa Cruz campus, it was just a very supportive place. And I learned a lot from other students. More than I learned from, just reading the books and everything, but, and this was back in, what, 79 to 82. And now Santa Cruz is, I mean, it's a way bigger school now than when I went there, but it was a very positive experience for me and very supportive.

And I spent most of my time actually at the radio station. I had my own radio show, and I used to do a daytime show, but my favorite was an overnight show from 12 midnight to 6 AM and where you could just play albums and, get all the crazy calls from the late night people. So, I had a very good experience at Santa Cruz.

[00:06:45] Louis Goodman: I have to have you come over and help me with the podcast. 

[00:06:47] James McElroy: Yes. That was a long time ago, Lou. A long time ago. 

[00:06:53] Louis Goodman: When you graduated from Santa Cruz, you ultimately went to law school. Did you go straight through, or did you take some time off? 

[00:06:58] James McElroy: No, I took, I believe, two years off. And work, then funny thing paid off my, what I owed for school. And because actually, even though I graduated in two, they didn't give me my diploma till 84 because I owed them a little money. 

[00:07:17] Louis Goodman: What did you do? What did you do to make some money? 

[00:07:19] James McElroy: I worked at the water department in Foster City, and they moved me over to the sewer department. And then I worked in a lot of nightclubs in downtown San Francisco, Rick's American Cafe on Sampson Street.

And I did a lot of just, you know, job just to survive and everything. And then I worked as a youth counselor for the Catholic churches in Bayview. And I had ran a youth program for St. Paul, the shipwreck, all hollows. And Our Lady of Lords, you know, I used to run their youth ministry program for them, which was very interesting because those were three different denominate, you know, three different, how would you say it?

One was the Franciscans, the other one was the Marist Brothers, and the other ones was the Brothers of Redemption. So, you know, I had to navigate those three different churches, even though they're all Catholic denominations, they had their own little politics I had to navigate, you see. 

[00:08:34] Louis Goodman: Oh, there's no politics like church politics.

[00:08:36] James McElroy: Yeah, exactly. And I was very young and did not know anything about it. Just, you know, had to learn. 

[00:08:43] Louis Goodman: And were all these kids mainly from Hunters Point? 

[00:08:47] James McElroy: Yeah, they were all Bay, from Bay Hunters Point area. And I started there in 82 and did not, you know, did 35 years working in the Bay Hunters Point community.

[00:09:01] Louis Goodman: When did you decide to be a lawyer? When, when did that come up? And then kind of a related question. When did you actually decide to apply to law school? 

[00:09:12] James McElroy: I was talking with a friend that I went to high school with, and I went to, my first year at CSM with it. He told me. He reminded me, you always said you were gonna be a lawyer, you know, and one thing is, I, you know, even though I wanted to, get my law degree, I, it was no exact thing that I wanted to actually practice law.

But I knew having a law degree was something good to have. You know, I just knew that was a good thing to have because when you were growing up. People used to leave lawyers alone, you know, you just need to leave lawyers alone.

[00:09:51] Louis Goodman: And then where did you go to law school? 

[00:09:54] James McElroy: I went to New College of California. You know, it was, you could call it a leftist law school that was in downtown San Francisco. It doesn't exist no more. I think they combined with John F. Kennedy law school, but yeah, it was called New College of California. 

[00:10:11] Louis Goodman: What was that experience like going to law school in San Francisco compared to you know, being in Santa Cruz, San Mateo, growing up, I mean, you've had, by this point in your life, you're still fairly young, but you've been in many different venues. 

[00:10:29] James McElroy: Well, I mean, one thing good about what New College was, it allowed you, you know, I had to work because I actually paid my own way through school, so it allowed me to work and at the same time, when I was a law clerk at Bayview Honest Point Foundation Community Defender, which a lot of good lawyers came out of, you know, I was able to get hands on practice in regards to the actual practicing of law, you know, I was a law clerk and I was able to do a lot of research and everything So, you know, I could hit the ground running 

[00:11:07] Louis Goodman: When you graduated from New College where did you go to work? What was your first? legal job like, and can you kind of take us a little bit through your legal career to where you are now and what you're doing these days? 

[00:11:21] James McElroy: When I graduated, when I got out of New College, I was already working at the Bay Hunters Point Foundation. And, you know, so I moved, I went from being the law clerk and they moved me over to a part time job at the youth service department because they used to have a youth department there and I started that in 1988 and, and so I was a youth counselor or they had it where it was, it was legal something, but what I used to do was represent kids in suspensions, expulsions, and everything.

So I did that, and then I became the program director there at the youth service, and during that same time, that's when the criminal justice system was changing how they provided youth programs to make kids not be locked up in juvenile hall.

Oh, basically when I became the program director there. And so, I got involved in like the evening reporting centers where Instead of locking kids up in jail, they would give them to us from three o'clock to seven o'clock and just administering those type of programs. And I stayed there for about 30 years.

And at the same time, I was able to, since it was from 11 o'clock to seven o'clock, I was able to practice law in between that time, but not at the level that I'm doing now. 

[00:13:07] Louis Goodman: So, when you left there, you kind of basically transitioned into a full time private practice for yourself? 

[00:13:15] James McElroy: Correct. 

[00:13:15] Louis Goodman: You've been doing this kind of for a long time now. What is it that you really like about practicing law? 

[00:13:23] James McElroy: The different cases, you know, because there's always the changings of the law and keeping up with the different cases and just interacting with people basically, and helping people with their issues. And, you know, having empathy for what people are going through and trying to express that to the courts and to the DA's office and everything.

And you never know what's around the corner. So, it keeps you young, it keeps you, you know, it keeps your mind going. You know, I couldn't imagine not doing nothing and, I like to move around too. So, you know, I like jumping from courts to courts, to courts and keeping busy.

[00:14:10] Louis Goodman: It does keep your mind going. I think some people would even say that my mind is still going after all these years.

[00:14:19] James McElroy: It keeps your mind going. 

[00:14:20] Louis Goodman: If a young person were just coming out of college, thinking about a career, would you recommend the law? 

[00:14:26] James McElroy: Well, it depends on their personality. It really depends on their personality.

I wouldn't discourage it. Because you need blue young blood coming through the system. So I would not discourage it, but they really have to examine what makes them pick and if they will like it, because you meet people who do it and they just say, it's not for me.

You know, I'll just give you an example. When I was in law school I clerked on a prison case and it was a killing out of a San Quentin prison. There was a black gorilla family one, and actually one of them is still on death row, and so I used to have to go to San Quentin for every week to talk to, you know, the defendants.

And. It really took a toll just seeing that, and this was in 1988. And so I was, you know, I was 25 or 26 or something like that. And I used to be in San Quentin and the buses would pull up from other counties like LA County and, you know, this was at the height of when they were locking everybody up. And then you, you know, you had to stop until everybody got off the bus from the correction buses and just seeing, young African American males that look just like me, that were my same age, just, it's like, whoa, this, it makes you think, so if you cannot deal with that, seeing some of the, you know, sometimes the injustice in the system, it ain't for you.

[00:16:16] Louis Goodman: What about the business of practicing law? You know what I mean? 

[00:16:21] James McElroy: That's a whole different story, getting paid, that's a whole different story. And you know, you have to make a living, you have to eat and everything. And that's the hardest part, especially for someone like me, because I'm not a greedy person.

So that's the hardest part. And a lot of my clients are on payment plans because who could afford it to come up with. 15, 20 thousand dollars at one setting. So a lot of times you got to put them on payment plans and everything. And so that's the hard part. And a lot of lawyers have people who outside of them, that's their job is to collect the money.

You know, is to collect the money. Cause a lot of lawyers, you know, for me, I'm not good at that, you know, but there's something that has to be done.

[00:17:14] Louis Goodman: You know, in talking to a lot of lawyers in general, and certainly for this podcast, I guess the two things that I've really come away from it with that we've kind of touched on in this conversation is that law is a bit of a calling that people were really called to the practice somehow or other lawyers tend to be born, not made and lawyers also Have trouble with the business side of things.

We don't really like having to run down legal fees and run down clients and that sort of thing. I'm just commenting now, really, on what you've been talking about, because that's to a large extent been my experience. And of course, it's been the experience of a lot of people I've talked to. 

[00:17:35] James McElroy: Well, you know, the thing is, I do a lot of family law too, which is totally different in regard to payment and everything.

And one of the hardest thing is the billing part in the family law because, you know, you could actually, you talk to a family lawyer for on the phone, they're supposed to, you know, write it down and everything like that and bill, okay, you talked to me 15 minutes and everything. 

And so, that's the difference, I believe, between criminal law and family law is the billing part. And how would I say, try to be careful how I say it, but, you know, the old saying in family law is, Oh, they'll defend you till your last dime. And when I started doing family law years ago, I understood what they meant by that. Because, you know, It's the billing that's the, that, you know, it's just a whole different ball game in family law when it comes to the billing part.

Because in criminal law, if you don't get paid, you're stuck. You, you know, you're on their case and you should have got your money ahead of time, as they always say in court. But see, in family law, if they don't prepare you, you could always just say, Hey, I'm not representing you no more. And, you know, file a motion to get off the case. So, you know, that's an interesting thing about the, and practicing law on this. 

[00:19:06] Louis Goodman: What do you think is the best advice you've ever received? And then let me just kind of mirror image that a little bit and say, what advice would you give to a young attorney just starting out?

[00:19:50] James McElroy: I think the best advice is, you know, and it's a harsh advice, but sometimes you just got to move on. Because there's another case around the corner, and you know, you can't get too invested in it. It's like, you know, the first time you have a client that gets sent for 17 years and he's 17 years old. I mean, it's hard.

Or some client that you really believe is innocent and he's found guilty and that's very hard. So, you have to basically move on and everything. And it's a hard thing to do and some can't do it, you know? So, you talk to ones who just, they'll just say, I can't do this.

So, I think it's important to just be strong in regards to, what you're doing and how do you do it and how do you have self-care. Cause self-care is important because if, you If you're a wreck, you're not going to be able to help no one else, you know, so make sure you have self-care and don't lose your credibility on a client though, you know, cause some clients will want to test your credibility, you know, say, Hey, I got to come back to court tomorrow and see these same people.

Okay. Well, I'm not going to do what you want me to do. 

[00:21:20] Louis Goodman: Do you think the legal system's fair?

[00:21:22] James McElroy: I think it sometimes tries to be, but I just think that nothing is perfect. And there's so many disparities in sentencing that just has, you know, you could see the bias, you could see the unfairness of some sentences, and especially if you practice in different counties. You just see the disparity in sentencing, that is basically baked into the system.

And I don't know how, but one thing is they've been trying to change it over the years. It's trying to evolve into a more fair system. Whether we get there, that's a different story, but you know, just like the, it says a more perfect unions, you know, it doesn't say it's perfect. But it's trying to move to a more perfect union.

So, it's trying to get there, you know, over the years, you can see the progress. 

[00:22:27] Louis Goodman: We're going to shift gears here a little bit. What's your family life been like and how has practicing law fit into that? How's your family life fit into the practice of law? That work life balance. How's that gone for you?

[00:22:41] James McElroy: My wife is retired right now. So when we were both working, we were just both working. And one of the greatest things is remote appearances, you know, I think one of the greatest things that's ever happened to the practice of law, because, you know, see, you had cases in San Mateo, Solano and San Francisco on the same day, you know, many times you would try to juggle that now you could just, you know, walk from your bedroom to your home office and being three or four different places at the same time. So, you know, I think that, since the pandemic, I think people are able to balance it more, better than before. 

[00:23:32] Louis Goodman: How about recreational interests, anything that you enjoy doing to kind of get your mind off of the practice of law once in a while?

[00:23:38] James McElroy: You know, one of the things that all, and I've been saying this for like 30 years now, I don't have a hobby, you know, I asked and I get jealous, not jealous, but I just respect people who have hobbies and, you know, my only hobby is watching baseball, you know, and, that's probably going to end since the Oakland A's moved out of town.

So I don't walk. I used to watch them every day. You know, that was, that was my hobby, but you know, I get a lot of traveling in now. That's, that's what my big thing is, you know, travel while you can. 

[00:24:18] Louis Goodman: Have you gotten someplace recently that particularly interest you? 

[00:24:23] James McElroy: Oh, I get on cruises now. You know, I always, I used to always kind of doubt cruises, but I didn't on three years ago.

So, you know, I just did Alaska. I'm going to do Hawaii and, you know, I do my schedule around my cruises and everything. But no, I do a lot of traveling and, you know, now I do. So, yeah, but I always like travel, but now. You know, I could, I have the time to do it and especially with these remote, you know, you could be anywhere in the world and long as you have internet connection and they have, you know, they have, the court has a remote appearance schedule.

Oh yeah. 

[00:25:10] Louis Goodman: Let's say you came into some real money, three or four billion dollars. What if anything, would you do differently in your life? 

[00:25:19] James McElroy: Oh, man, if I came into that, I would probably give it away to someone because what am I going to do with that? I can't even imagine what I would do with it, but I know I would give it away and run away so nobody else would bother me.

[00:25:33] Louis Goodman: Let's say you had a magic wand and there was one thing that you could change in the legal world or just the world in general. What would that be? 

[00:25:42] James McElroy: If I had a magic wand, one thing I could change, you know, the whole thing is, I think it would just be the living arrangements for what's going on in this country because I have never seen it like this in regards to the homeless population and, you know, and people living in their recreation vehicle, kids too. I mean, I just think it's ridiculous. So, I mean, I think the biggest thing is to take care of the housing problem and people having decent housing. 

[00:26:19] Louis Goodman: James, if someone wants to get in touch with you, what's the best way to do that? Can we just Google James A. McElroy in San Francisco and we'll find you? 

[00:26:32] James McElroy: Yeah, in San Francisco. That's the best way. Yeah, James A. McElroy.

[00:26:38] Louis Goodman: James, is there anything that you'd like to talk about that we haven't discussed? Anything at all that you'd like to bring up? 

[00:26:46] James McElroy: I think that we covered a lot. 

[00:26:50] Louis Goodman: James A. McElroy, thank you so much for joining me today on the Love Thy Lawyer podcast. It's been a pleasure to talk to you. 

[00:26:16] James McElroy: Thank you, Lou. It's been a pleasure to talk to you and thank you for having me.

[00:26:20] Louis Goodman: That's it for today's episode of Love Thy Lawyer. If you enjoyed listening, please share it with a friend and follow the podcast. If you have comments or suggestions, send me an email. Take a look at our website at lovethylawyer.com, where you can find all of our episodes, transcripts, photographs and information.

Thanks to my guests, and to Joel Katz for music, Bryan Matheson for technical support, Paul Robert for social media and Tracy Harvey. I'm Louis Goodman.

[00:26:58] James McElroy: What's old Moffett saying? I don't trust people who save money, you know, but no, I, how, I couldn't even, I wouldn't, I can't even imagine that, you know?