Joe Cox - Fighting Knight

Louis Goodman / Joe Cox - Transcript

[00:00:03] Louis Goodman: Welcome to Love Thy Lawyer, where we talk with attorneys about their lives and careers. I'm your host, Louis Goodman. Today, we welcome Joseph Cox to the podcast. Mr. Cox practices criminal defense in Alameda County. He is a member of the ABA Criminal Law Section, California Attorneys for Criminal Justice, and the National Association of Criminal Defense Attorneys.

Most importantly, he's one of the lawyers who I always see when I go to court, and it's always fun to see him. Joseph Cox, welcome to the Love Thy Lawyer podcast. 

[00:00:41] Joe Cox: Good afternoon, Lou. How are you doing? 

[00:00:44] Louis Goodman: I'm doing well. Where are you speaking to us from right now? 

[00:00:47] Joe Cox: I am in my office in Livermore, California. 

[00:00:51] Louis Goodman: How long have you been practicing law? 

[00:00:54] Joe Cox: I have been practicing law for 13 years now. 

[00:00:57] Louis Goodman: Can you describe what kind of practice you have? How do you describe your practice? 

[00:01:02] Joe Cox: Oh, I describe it as all we do is criminal defense and nothing else. 

[00:01:07] Louis Goodman: Where are you from originally? 

[00:01:10] Joe Cox: I'm originally from Oakdale, California. It's a little farm town, about an hour east of Livermore. 

[00:01:16] Louis Goodman: Is that where you went to high school? 

[00:01:18] Joe Cox: Yes, I went to Oakdale high school. 

[00:01:20] Louis Goodman: What was your experience in high school like? You were, you were pretty active there as I recall. 

[00:01:25] Joe Cox: Yes, high school was great. Oakdale is a very small town, or used to be pretty small.

Very close knit community, it's actually, to give you a sense of what it is, it's known as the cowboy capital of the world. So, yeah, I was very active in sports, played football, baseball, basketball, and then did a lot of stuff outside of sports as well, out there in the farm town. 

[00:01:49] Louis Goodman: But when you graduated from high school in Oakdale, you went to college. Where'd you go? 

[00:01:53] Joe Cox: First, I went to Modesto Junior College down in Modesto. And then after that, I went to Florida to a school, Lynn University, which is in Boca Raton, Florida, South Florida, just above Fort Lauderdale. And I went there, hadn't planned on going there. I actually was going to plan on staying somewhere in California, but I ended up was fortunate enough to get a baseball scholarship. So I packed up and went back to Florida for a few years. 

[00:02:22] Louis Goodman: That's a long way from home. What was that experience like? 

[00:02:26] Joe Cox: It was great. It was a little bit difficult being away from home. I think my mom took it the worst out of everyone. And of course I missed all those home cooked meals, but it was a great experience. And down in South Florida, it was great. You know, the weather was great. The beach is there and just the whole experience of playing sports, playing baseball in college and traveling around on the East coast, which I'd never been to. And so it was great to actually see the other side of the country.

[00:02:57] Louis Goodman: So you were playing baseball for the fighting Knights. 

[00:03:00] Joe Cox: That's right. Yep. Yep. And it was a great experience. And they actually, the year that I graduated the next year, they ended up winning the national championship. So I missed it by one year. 

[00:03:11] Louis Goodman: When you graduated from college, you went to law school. Did you go straight through or did you take some time off between college and law school? 

[00:03:19] Joe Cox: No, I took about a year off. I was down in South Florida, kind of just wondering, baseball was done and wondering what I was going to do with life. And I remember calling my dad and saying, Hey, I think I need to, this, this beach stuff is I'm done with it. And I had thought about law school when I was in high school, but really didn't put much thought into it because I just wanted to play baseball the rest of my life, which did not pan out, obviously. And so him and I talked and within about three days I had everything packed up and drove straight back to California, lived with my parents for, it was about nine months or a year, saved up some money, worked for my brother, and then went off to law school. 

[00:04:07] Louis Goodman: And where'd you go to law school? 

[00:04:08] Joe Cox: I went to Thomas Cooley, Thomas M. Cooley Law School in Lansing, Michigan. 

[00:04:13] Louis Goodman: Now that is a very different experience than being in Florida, and a different experience than being in California. So how did you feel about being in all that snow and cold? 

[00:04:27] Joe Cox: You know, I didn't mind it because I love the snow. The only thing that was difficult to get used to, and I never got used to was the wind. And over there, when the wind picks up, when it is also, when it's cold and snowy, it just pierces through everything. And so that was the only thing that was a little bit difficult to get adjusted to, but I loved Michigan.

I think it is a beautiful state. So I didn't, I didn't mind it. 

[00:04:57] Louis Goodman: When did you first start thinking about being a lawyer? You kind of touched on this a little earlier, but when did you know that you wanted to be a lawyer, and then when did you actually decide, okay, I'm going to, you know, really do it and make the application process? Take the LSAT, send in the money, find a law school. 

[00:05:18] Joe Cox: So I had thought about it first and I don't remember why, but I think in high, and it was in high school, I know that I thought about it, but then again was like, well, that's just secondary because I just want to be able, I want to be a professional athlete.

Then reality hit at the end of college and then it really kind of sunk in, I think it was 2007 or eight. And there weren't too many jobs, I don't think, I remember the country wasn't in a, wasn't doing so great with the job opportunities out there. And so I had talked to my dad, I remember waking up one morning and then I talked to my dad.

And then when I came home, talked to them a little bit more and just said, all right, this is what, this is what I'm going to do. And I just decided once you start, there's no turning back. So I started all the application process, started doing the LSAT and just took off from there. And I remember I kept getting wait listed on all the schools and I kept thinking to myself, why am I getting wait listed?

I didn't think I was that dumb. And I remember working, I remember working for my brother and we were, I think I was out of service or something, and I kept getting letters from schools and I told my mom and I didn't, I don't even think I applied to where I went to law school. I remember telling my mom, I said, I'm just sick of getting these waitlisted.

Whatever school says they'll take me, send it back, send it back and I'll go to that school. And I remember coming home and I don't remember if it was my mom or dad saying, Hey, you're going to be, you're going to be going over to a school in Michigan. And I said, all right, cool. And so that's how I landed over. 

[00:07:00] Louis Goodman: When you got out of law school, what was your first legal job? 

[00:07:03] Joe Cox: I worked for Law Offices of Timothy B. Reen, Tim Reen, and I actually externed him for my last semester of law school. And then he asked me, you know, what are your plans? And I said, I have no plans. I was going to start applying to jobs. And he says, well, why don't you come around the office?

And I think maybe we can find a spot for you. And I said, okay. So that's where I landed. 

[00:07:26] Louis Goodman: And basically you're still there, right? 

[00:07:28] Joe Cox: Yes, I am. I've been here since my externship in 2010 or 11, early 11, joined Tim and Melissa and then Melissa and I took over in 2016 and still going. 

[00:07:42] Louis Goodman: And I would note that Melissa Adams has been on this and we've interviewed her as well.

[00:07:48] Joe Cox: Yes, yes, yes she has. 

[00:07:50] Louis Goodman: What is it that you really like about practicing law? What is it that keeps you practicing law, and what is it that keeps you practicing law where you are? 

[00:07:58] Joe Cox: I think the thing about, well, first off, I think it goes back to when I was in law school, I did not really like the other classes that didn't involve some type of criminal law, and I really liked constitutional law, evidence, and criminal law.

So, when I fell into this externship with Tim, I just, I fell in love with criminal law. And so, I think that what I really like about practicing specifically criminal law are the tools that we have to assist clients. And I like the way that you can kind of get just creative in resolving issues, and cases, you know, the law allows, especially like the, the, the diversion statutes and stuff.

And even if there isn't a diversion statute, you know, there's ways that you can create your own type of way to resolve a case. And that's what I really like about practicing criminal law.

[00:08:56] Louis Goodman: If a young person were just coming out of college, would you recommend the law as a career and specifically criminal? 

[00:09:03] Joe Cox: I would say it's kind of, yes, and no, I would say that like if I had to do it all over again, I would want to know what I'm getting into. Thankfully, it was something that I really enjoyed, and so if it's something that you're saying you're just gonna do to do, I would say you need to go and maybe do an internship somewhere to see how it is.

We have a bunch of interns that we take in every year, not a bunch, a couple, and kind of just show them that this is what the real life is like. You know, we have them do projects working on, you know, our biggest cases that we have in the office. I take them to court with me. We introduce them to judges, we go into judges chambers, they sit there, if we are talking about a case, and then afterwards, they kind of, their eyes open up, and I say, if this is something that you, if you enjoyed doing, you know, going to court with us, and you enjoyed what you've been exposed to for the last six, seven months, then yeah, go for it, if not, then I would say don't.

[00:10:03] Louis Goodman: What about the business of practicing law? How's that gone for you, and what's your comment about that?

[00:10:10] Joe Cox: Well, I know you've got years and years of experience in this, and so it was a bumpy road, but the business side of it kind of just, I would say in the beginning, whacks you in the face, and you're going from practice, just wanting to practice law, practice law, practice law, to now practicing law, and then on top of that, trying to run a business and make sure that, you know, your staff is paid and all your bills are paid and realizing that you don't have a guaranteed paycheck. And so running the business side of it is something that, it's difficult. And I think a lot of people don't realize that is that you're constantly, I don't know if you'd call it hustling, but you're constantly just trying to keep the lights on, if you will. And then the practicing the law part of it is, is the fun part.

[00:10:57] Louis Goodman: Yeah. I think that law schools really fail us in the sense that they don't really teach us much about the business of practicing law. They don't give us any education or experience in terms of what it takes to run a law practice. And I think that's fine if you're going to go into a really big firm or go work for the government.

But if you're going to work in a small practice or solo practice in any field of law, I don't think law schools give us very much preparation for that, and I think it's unfortunate. 

[00:11:30] Joe Cox: Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more, you know, when you come out and you just, like you said, unless you're going to go work for someone or a government or some, you know, where you're not responsible for any of that type of running the business.

But if you are, and fortunately I wasn't in the beginning, but then once we, you know, we did the kind of the transition and Tim was showing us, it's like, Oh man, I don't know if I want, I just like doing the fun stuff, the practicing law, this business stuff, it's difficult. It really is.

[00:11:59] Louis Goodman: What do you think is the best advice you've ever received? And then I'll ask it another way, which is what advice would you give to a young attorney just starting out? And you could answer it either part of that question or both. 

[00:12:14] Joe Cox: I would say the best advice that I've received is, be honest and your reputation is everything and the moment, and I think that if there's any doubt in your honesty that reflects on your reputation, and that was one thing I was always taught is that, you know, your reputation is everything, especially in a courtroom. And we deal with the same people with DAs and stuff.

And I just think that your reputation is everything. And someone that is starting out, I would tell them a couple of things. One, just that is, you know, you do not want to start off by having a bad reputation because that will stick with you throughout your career. And I would say they call it practicing law for a reason.

And to anybody that's just starting out, you're never going to know everything, and you are constantly going to be learning stuff. It's like when I sit in court and I just listen and I can't tell you how many times I just learn, you know, learn something new I like. Well, or a topic that I thought I knew something about, and then the attorneys are arguing, and the judge gives his or her ruling, and it's like, okay, well, I didn't know that.

And I thought I knew that. I didn't know that. And so, anybody starting out, you're not going to know everything. You will never know everything. And so, I just think that it's something that you have to just be mindful that it's okay not to know everything, just try, try your best and absorb as much as you can, and be honest. That's it. 

[00:13:44] Louis Goodman: I think that's a really great comment, especially about, well, certainly about the reputational stuff, but also about the notion that we are practicing law. We are always learning something. We are always finding out something new about the law, about how things work, about ourselves. I think that's probably the thing that I like the most about practicing la, is, there's something new every day.

[00:14:08] Joe Cox: Yeah, isn't it fascinating? It's just like, wow, I didn't, I didn't realize that. I didn't know that, you know. 

[00:14:14] Louis Goodman: Do you think the legal system's fair? 

[00:14:16] Joe Cox: I think for the most part, but I also think it's kind of fair and unfair depending on which side of it you're on. As a defendant, if you get a favorable ruling or you get a favorable outcome, you think it's fair.

As a victim, you may not think that it is fair. And so we do the best that we can on both sides to have it fair, but, you know, I think for the most part, I think it is fair, but equally unfair, if that makes sense. 

[00:14:45] Louis Goodman: Yeah, I think it does make sense. I think that we at best get sort of a rough justice out of the criminal system anyway.

I mean, I don't know too much about the rest of it, but I think that the court system ultimately comes up with some sort of rough justice. Let me shift gears here a little bit. What's your family life been like and how has practicing law affected that? How's your family life fit into the practice of law?

[00:15:07] Joe Cox: So my family life, my wife, she's also an attorney. She's an associate general counsel for tech firm. And so we, of course, in the beginning, we just worked, worked, worked, worked. We didn't talk too much about work just because it's something that kind of we go home and it's just like try to shut it off even though never shut it off, but at least stop talking about it. And then after we had our boy, who's now three and a half years old, well, right after we have him, you realize, you know, life changes and these hours get cut down or at least during the day, but you get back to it maybe in the evening.

And so it's been different with now, you know, as a father and wife, as a mother, trying to spend as much time as you can as a family at home and try to leave the work at work.

[00:16:00] Louis Goodman: What sort of recreational things do you like to do? I know that you're an active outdoorsman, can you tell us a little bit about that aspect of your life? 

[00:16:10] Joe Cox: Yeah, so, Any chance I get, which is pretty often, I like to spend my time up in the mountains, specifically the Sierra Nevada, up near Pinecrest or up higher than that.

And so I like to fish and I like to hunt. And then in the wintertime I do snow biking. I convert my dirt bike into put a ski on the front and put a track on the back. And it's called snow biking. It's a fairly new sport. And so that's what I love to do. And I got my wife enjoying it somewhat and we go up to the mountains as much as we can.

[00:16:46] Louis Goodman: What sort of things keep you up at night? 

[00:16:48] Joe Cox: Oh boy, making sure, or I guess just confirming that I did things, you know, even little things like calendaring. Oh my gosh, I got, you know, got retained on that case and it's supposed to be on in four days, but the client had a different date. Did I call the court?

Just want to confirm, did I call the court? Or what I like to do is email just for this specific reason, when I wake up two or three times a night, check my email to confirm, okay, did I do that email or something calendared, or what I do is I will write notes to myself throughout the day on my phone. And then if the note is not there, then I know that the task was done.

So then I'll wake up at night and check my notes. Like, did I do this? Did I do that? Okay. It's not in my notes section. You know, that type of stuff. You know, 

[00:17:31] Louis Goodman: I do know that kind of stuff. 

[00:17:34] Joe Cox: You know exactly what I mean. So that type of stuff is usually what wakes me up a couple of times a night. 

[00:17:39] Louis Goodman: Let's say you came into some real money, several billion dollars, 3, 4 billion dollars. What, if anything, would you do differently in your life? 

[00:17:48] Joe Cox: Well, I know I wouldn't be living here, I would probably be living, I would try to buy some mountain range, I'm sure, and go live in the mountains, yeah, that has plenty of snow and plenty of wildlife, and that's probably where I'd be. 

[00:18:03] Louis Goodman: Let's say you had a magic wand, there was one thing in the world, the legal world or otherwise, and if you could change one thing, what would that be?

[00:18:10] Joe Cox: You know, I thought about that, and I think there's two things really, but the one that, the second one that I would say was, you know, a drug problem that we have in America, but I think that, and this just goes back to, I think, being a criminal defense lawyer, I know this is impossible, but just carrying mental health.

So many times, and you know this just meeting with clients and then, and their, their families that have just been dealing with this for the, you know, our clients their entire life. And sometimes it's just, it's so sad and you wish that you could just heal all their pain and take all that away from them.

And I've always thought if we could just cure mental health, you know, I just think it'd just be much, much better world for all. 

[00:18:56] Louis Goodman: Let's say you had a Super Bowl ad, that was one thing that you could put out there, well, it doesn't even have to be one thing, but if you had a Super Bowl ad, 60 seconds on the Super Bowl, could put out any message to a huge audience, what would you like to say or advertise?

[00:19:15] Joe Cox: Be nice, be kind, especially when you're dealing with someone because, like a stranger or someone you've never met, or even people that you do know, because you don't really know what that person is going through in their personal life or professional life. You know, they may sound good, look good, but just constantly try to be kind. That's what I would say. 

[00:19:39] Louis Goodman: Joe, if someone wants to get in touch with you, perhaps to be represented by your office or another attorney, had a question for you. What's the best way to get in touch with Joe Cox? 

[00:19:53] Joe Cox: Our website is, I would say, the easiest way, and then it has our phone number on there. www.criminalaw.net, and that's just with one L. I would say that's the easiest way. 

[00:20:06] Louis Goodman: So, if we were to Google, Joseph Cox or Joe Cox in Livermore, or Modesto, we'd come up with you and your firm? 

[00:20:17] Joe Cox: That's correct. Yes, we have an office, main office in Livermore, and then we have a small office in Modesto. 

[00:20:23] Louis Goodman: And you do a fair amount of work in the Valley as well?

[00:20:26] Joe Cox: Yes, we do. We do. We handle quite a bit of cases both in Stanislaus County and San Joaquin County. 

[00:20:32] Louis Goodman: Joe, is there anything that you'd like to discuss that we haven't touched on? Anything at all that you'd like to bring up? Anything you want to talk about? 

[00:20:40] Joe Cox: No. I mean, you've, you've hit it all. All the high points. And I really appreciate you having me. 

[00:20:46] Louis Goodman: Joseph Cox, thank you so much for joining me today on the Love Thy Lawyer podcast. It's been a pleasure to talk to you. 

[00:20:54] Joe Cox: Thank you, Lou. It's been a pleasure to be on. I appreciate it. 

[00:20:57] Louis Goodman: That's it for today's episode of Love Thy Lawyer. If you enjoyed listening, please share it with a friend and follow the podcast. If you have comments or suggestions, send me an email. Take a look at our website at lovethylawyer.com, where you can find all of our episodes, transcripts, photographs and information.

Thanks to my guests, and to Joel Katz for music, Bryan Matheson for technical support, Paul Robert for social media and Tracy Harvey. I'm Louis Goodman.

[00:21:39] Joe Cox: Yep, I'm on the Wi Fi and it's full. I'm wondering, do you want me to try to go through the app? Or no, not the app, but the second link that goes through Chrome? 

[00:21:49] Louis Goodman: Yeah, let's try that. Let's just see what happens if we do that.