Julie Batz (ACBA) - Pittsburgh/Taiwan/San Lorenzo

Louis Goodman / Julie Batz – Transcript

Louis Goodman 00:03 

Welcome to the Alameda County Bar Association and the Love Thy Lawyer podcast. I'm Louis Goodman. Today, we welcome attorney Julie Batz to the program. Ms. Batz has represented large corporations, small and medium-sized businesses, as well as individuals in a variety of civilly litigated. She has also worked representing seniors and dependent adults in Alameda County Superior Court and with the United States Citizen and Immigration Services. She is an active member of the Alameda County Bar Association and President of Legal Access Alameda, the nonprofit arm of ACBA. Julie Batz, welcome to the Alameda County Bar Association and the Love Thy Lawyer podcast. 

Julie Batz 00:52 

Hi, Louis. Thanks so much for being here. I'm quite excited to be here. So, thanks. 

Louis Goodman 00:57 

Where are you speaking to us from right now? 

Julie Batz 01:00 

I am speaking from my family room of my home here in the East Bay. 

Louis Goodman 01:04 

Can you tell us a little bit about what sort of practice that you have mainly been involved with as an attorney? 

Julie Batz 01:13 

You know, I started out as a nonprofit attorney. I volunteered with the nonprofit arm of the ACBA and also the San Francisco Bar Association, and during that time, I had my second child and that experience with the pro bono programs got me my job at legal assistance for seniors, where I was an attorney representing elders and dependent adults, and also elders who wanted to obtain their citizenship. So that I was there for almost five years.

And then I decided to pivot and to go to private practice. So for the, for the past about nine and a half years, I've been doing civil insurance, defense litigation, and that's what I'm doing now. 

Louis Goodman 01:49 

Where are you from originally? 

Julie Batz 01:51 

You know, I was born and raised in Hayward, San Leandro. So the East Bay, I'm half Chinese and my mom was born in China and her family immigrated to Taiwan after the communism takeover. So was raised in Taiwan and then came here and met my biological dad and came here and had me. 

So, I'm originally from the Bay Area. However, growing up, I spent my summers both in Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania from my dad's side and in Taiwan. So I spent a lot of time in Taiwan with my mom's family.

Louis Goodman 02:20 

Did you go to high school in Hayward? 

Julie Batz 02:22 

I went to high school in San Lorenzo, Arroyo, Arroyo Dons. 

Louis Goodman 02:27 

When you went to Pennsylvania, where in Pennsylvania did you go? Pittsburgh, you said? 

Julie Batz 02:32 

Yeah, Pittsburgh, just like one of the little like suburbs of Pittsburgh, just right next door. And I would visit my, my grandparents, my dad's. So it's interesting because my mom and dad divorced when I was very young, three. And so my mom raised me as a single mom, a single child. And, but yet I was always closer with my dad's family than I ever was with my dad. So she would send me to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania to stay with my grandparents, or my dad, my paternal grandparents, and my paternal aunt and uncle.

And then the other summers, she would send me to her, her family. So Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Yeah. Very different experiences growing up. 

Louis Goodman 03:05 

I'm wondering if you could do a little compare and contrast between Hayward, San Lorenzo and Pittsburgh and Taiwan. 

Julie Batz 03:12 

I thought about that actually, cause I think, I feel like that those experiences have diversified my perspectives perspective as a lawyer. And I find that quite lucrative. I think I'll tell you a quick story. So when I was in Taiwan, I went to summer school there when I was young. And I remember the first day of summer school. I don't know how old I was maybe five or six, but I started going when I was, I started, I flew up myself for the first time at three and a half years old to Taiwan.

And then after that to Penn, Pittsburgh one year, one summer, and then Taiwan. So my first memory of going to summer school in Taiwan was that, you know, the teacher welcomed me as like, Hey, we have this, you know, new student here, Julie Batz. She's from, you know, America and the whole class laughed. They laughed at me and because they kept calling me white girl, right?

Like she can't speak Mandarin white girl. They thought those are the comments. But as soon as I was able to speak Mandarin, just like them with no accent, they were some, some were able to accept me. So there was that. And that was the first time I realized that there was a difference. Cause I just thought I was just Chinese, you know, but they didn't see me as that.

When I went to Pennsylvania, it was a very white, predominantly white middle class neighborhood where they also were definitely not an experience quite as memorable, but also it was just the old school, play in people's yards, be out all day, you know, mess around the neighborhood, you know, play in the woods and nothing cultural at all.

Nothing food, no night markets, you know, just dealing with, you know, my grandparents who I learned a lot as far as, you know, where my dad grew up and how he grew up in a very small house. And then San Leandro, San Lorenzo. I guess, I guess maybe in hindsight, it was sort of a mix because, you know, growing up in San Leandro, there's a very large Asian population, and so I was able to speak Mandarin a lot, you know, while I was, you know, in the Bay Area, but yet, you know, I guess I also didn't fit in there as well because, you know, either I looked not quite Asian or quite not quite white.

And so people wouldn't be able to know where to put me. And, It was only after that experience in Taiwan and that summer school that it really came to the front of my mind that that was actually an issue. 

Louis Goodman 05:25 

When you graduated from high school, where'd you go to college? 

Julie Batz 05:29 

I went straight to UC Santa Cruz.

Louis Goodman 05:32 

How was that experience for you? 

Julie Batz 05:34 

It was great. Santa Cruz was amazing. Like the forest. The trees, you know, I didn't realize I didn't, you don't have, I didn't have the traditional college experience because they don't have, you know, sororities and fraternities or a football team, which I was not looking for.

However, I remember I went from 97 to 2001 and I became a, became a resident as an RA for a couple of years. It was so great that I would go to the beach in between classes. And then go to class and then go back to the beach and, you know, You know, study on the beach at the boardwalk. It, I have very fond memories of it and going, being able to like hike through the forest.

And one thing I remember is that that was during the time that UC Santa Cruz was starting to really develop and build additional buildings. And the old gym there used to be kind of this rundown, like wood building, like just one story, very kind of smelly gym. And my second year there, they built this really great gym on top of a hill. And I remember being on a treadmill running and have this gorgeous view of like above the trees, the ocean. And I just thought, man, only Santa Cruz. This is great. You know, nature and I get an education. It was quite amazing. 

Louis Goodman 06:46 

So the full banana slug experience? 

Julie Batz 06:49 

The full, including the banana slugs. Yes. 

Louis Goodman 06:52 

When you graduated from college, you ultimately went to law school. Did you take some time off or did you go straight through? 

Julie Batz 06:58 

I did. I could put three years off to three years off. You know, law school. I mean, undergrad UC Santa Cruz was great. You know, it was a challenge though, I was a bit burnt out with the educational requirements, you know, so I needed some time off.

So I took three years off before I went, took the LSAT and then went to law school. And during that time I worked at several different insurance defense law firms as a billing clerk. 

Louis Goodman 07:21 

And do you think that having had this sort of legal adjacent job helped you when you got to law school to be able to focus on law school and to have a sense of what it is that you wanted to do as a lawyer?

Julie Batz 07:37 

I absolutely think that that experience was invaluable, was priceless, whether or not it helped me focus on law. I don't know if it helped me focus, but I think that, you know, during my three years that I took off and working at three or four different firms, I was able to see attorneys and say, and actually see what they do day to day.

You know, I never wanted to go to law school to change the world, right? I wanted to see, actually, what do you do day to day? Like, is this something that I really want to do? And I got to see they aren't necessarily changing the world, maybe their immediate community. But I think that that experience made me excel faster once I became an attorney, I was definitely more well rounded and I got, just got to see more perspectives from different areas that I didn't have had been exposed to prior. 

Louis Goodman 08:22 

Where'd you go to law school? 

Julie Batz 08:24 

I went to San Francisco law school and I worked full time as a billing clerk while I went to law school in the evenings. And I was always afraid that once I graduated and passed the bar, I would not be able to find a job. I passed the bar the first time. However, you know, the economy was not good in 08. So it sort of my worst nightmare sort of happened, but yet it still worked out. 

Louis Goodman 08:43 

Well, you did start working pretty much right away doing the, the senior work and the immigration work. Is that correct? 

Julie Batz 08:51 

Yeah. So right after I passed the bar, I just, I just buried myself. That was the time in 08 where I had friends that I met through Barbary and other friends from high school that went to like Hastings and who had job offers at law firms that got retracted during that time. So I'm like, well, shoot, if they can't find a job, I'm really going to struggle.

And I did, I did struggle. So, so what I did is I kept active and I did pro bono. I just buried myself in the Alameda County Bar Association. At that time, their nonprofit arm was the VLSC. Now it's Legal Access Alameda. And I was able to obtain experience in court while helping, you know, bridging the gap of, of, of justice to the litigants.

And then I also volunteered at the San Francisco bar association during that time as well. So I'd commute, take the BART over for the consumer debt. Yeah, I got experience right away. And then I had a, my second child during that time. And then after about nine months, that's what got me the legal assistant senior job, which was, which was great. So I did start working right away. 

Louis Goodman 09:48 

Can you tell us about what you do now as president of Legal Access Alameda because it seems to tie in with what you were just talking about. 

Julie Batz 10:00 

I was the president the last two years. As of this year, I'm the vice president and I support the current president, Judge Ilan Lambert. As president, you know, you run the board meetings and you look at the financials and you approve proposals, you know, last year,  2023. It was very labor intensive when I was president because Tila Chalmers, who I've known since she was at, you know, the SF bar, she retired. And so we had to replace someone who was pivotal in creating these great programs at Legal Access. And so a lot of it was dead. A lot of my time was dedicated not only to my practice of law at that time, but also to being on the committee to find her replacement and also collecting information and figuring out what's best for the agency when taking my personal thoughts out, you know, and talking to individual employees, volunteers, and figure out what the current needs are and how to replace that and where to fill the holes. 

Louis Goodman 10:54 

What exactly does Legal Access Alameda do? 

Julie Batz 10:58 

It carries on non volunteer opportunities to, for attorneys to volunteer so that not for litigants that are lower socioeconomic, economic status can afford legal representation.

It bridges the gap between legal justice. And for example, what I did when I was there was, they have in Alameda County Superior Courts, they have a pro per family day, family law day of courts. And so when I was a volunteer attorney, I would go and volunteer and the judges would count on the volunteers to, you know, calculate distal master, try to arrange an agreement between the pro per litigants and try to, you know, provide a recommendation or try to provide any other help that the court needs, that the clerk couldn't do, or that, you know, maybe if the litigants had an attorney, it would make everything go smoothly.

So that's one, that's one program that I assisted with. They also have a, a Bally Program. They have many programs where you can volunteer where a guardianship program as well, where there's maybe a grandmother or maybe just a family member who their daughter or son had a child and aren't able to care for the child.

And so the legal access Alameda in conjunction with legal assistance for seniors will sometimes represent those potential guardians to apply, obtain guardianships for these children so that they're, you know, that they're taken care of. So they're just, that's just two of the programs that Legal Access Alameda does.

Louis Goodman 12:27 

Now you're going to tell us a little story. 

Julie Batz 12:29 

Yeah, it was about, actually, that's a great, perfect timing. So I remember when I was volunteering for the Family Law Day of Court, I was, I was probably about six months after I passed the bar. I don't, maybe I was, I don't, I can't remember if I was pregnant at that time. I was very, you know, down on myself about not being able to find a job at that time. And the, and I went in the back of the, one of the side rooms in the courthouse with the pro litigants and the, the dad, it was a dad and mom and they were fighting over custody over their girl. And the dad was very frustrated over the whole process.

And he yelled at me and he said, you're just an attorney. You're probably getting paid Tons of money. You have no idea what this is about. Like you're, you're, you know, you just up on a, like a pedestal because you're getting paid a lot of money. And pretty much I got yelled at. And I responded with what, you know, pretty much trying to get the job done for the judge.

But in that moment, I thought he has no idea that I'm a volunteer attorney struggling in my own way, trying to find my own career. And I don't expect him to understand. And so as much as I feel like I'm suffering or I'm struggling, some other people are struggling so much, even more with the fundamentals of life that I can't even understand.

And so as much as I can't understand their situation, I need to put my feelings aside and say, I'm here to do this job. And I, he didn't need to know my payment status or anything. I just took it and realized there are people more need than me. So that's why I continue to be involved in that Legal Access Alameda. 

Louis Goodman 13:59 

Two-part question. When did you first start thinking about being a lawyer? And then when was it that you decided? Yeah, I'm really going to apply to law school? 

Julie Batz 14:13 

It was probably my last year of UC Santa Cruz, that I thought about what am I gonna do next? And then I took a few years off at a law firm, and it was after three years, I was like, well, I was thinking about law school my last year of UC Santa Cruz.

And I just thought, well, I'm burnt out. I'm gonna, you know, I worked a couple jobs. One was at the law firm. I'm going to see what it's about. And now that I've seen what lawyers do every day, can I do this? Is this what's going to meet my expectations? And so that's when I really started applying for else the LSAT and then actually pursuing it.

Louis Goodman 14:44 

If a young person were just coming out of college and thinking about a career, would you recommend the law? 

Julie Batz 14:50 

It depends on the person. Isn't that such a lawyer answer? It depends. I would, you know, I would ask them why, specifically, what they're looking for, what their needs are, and then go from there. You know, I don't want to, I have all types of advice that may or may not be relevant to someone.

I just, I remember during that volunteer time when, after I passed the bar, I volunteered to give the high school students a tour of the San Francisco Superior Court and they would come up and ask me and they would come up and say, I just want to be a DA or lawyer. They had something in mind that they wanted to accomplish.

And while that, I think that is great. You kind of have to be open to what life sort of brings you and then consider it and it doesn't mean you have to take things, but you know, it depends on someone's path, what they want to do, what makes them happy, and I think that takes a lot of thought process and does being an attorney accomplish that person's goal?

Louis Goodman 15:41 

What do you think is the best advice you've ever received and what advice would you give to someone who is just starting out as an attorney? 

Julie Batz 15:50 

Modesty is a great skill to continue to keep. You could know a lot of stuff and been through a lot of trials, but yet there's always something to learn. So as a new attorney, I know that this is what drew me to the practice of law is that you're always constantly challenging yourself, both personally and professionally.

And I like that. Like, I need that. So if, but for a new attorney, You can't assume because, oh, I succeeded in this one trial or because I've been practicing, practicing for X amount of years, I'm so great. You, I'm sure you are great, but also keep your model, you know, state, stay modest because there's always something to learn.

Louis Goodman 16:28 

Do you think the legal system is fair? 

Julie Batz 16:29 

Yeah, yeah, sure. You know, I've listened to a number of your podcasts, your interviewees before this, and I, I don't disagree with really anyone. I think it can be fair. And I think most of the time it is fair. I've seen, I've observed many criminal court proceedings when I was an attorney at Legal Assistance for Seniors and Elder Abuse Criminal Cases, as well as civil, you know, trials.

And the judges, each one has their own strengths and weaknesses. And overall, they are very unbiased and very, they take their job seriously. And with that, I mean, how, I mean, it's fair in hindsight, after things have happened in hindsight, could things have been done differently? Maybe, you know, but that is not a question of fairness. I think that is just a question of personal and professional growth for that person. But yeah, and I will say, Louis, when I was in law school, My third year, I was working full time and going to law school. I was a jury in a criminal case in Alameda County Superior Court. So I got to sit on it as a juror through verdict in a criminal case, someone died. And that was a very eye-opening experience, which makes me believe that the system is fair because as a juror, we did not, we follow, we did in fact follow all the rules. So I do think it's fair. 

Louis Goodman 17:45 

Let's say you came into some real money, several billion dollars. What, if anything, would you do differently in your life?

Julie Batz 17:52 

Well, for sure I would donate to Legal Access Alameda and legal assistance for seniors. I think, those are two specifically the nonprofit arms of the local bar associations here in California. I would not only involve donate money to legal access Alameda, but to a number of them, me personally, you know, I'm done with pro bono work, but I would like to volunteer my time on the board or somewhere a little bit more.

So I would like to support people that. Can and will and can learn from pro bono work and then legal assistance for seniors. I found that during my time there, there was not very much support and financial support for elders. A lot of it was for kids or other DV domestic violence. And so I would look to other agencies or other nonprofits for seniors that could help that could assist them to achieve their goal.

Louis Goodman 18:40 

Let's say out of magic wand, there was one thing in the world that you could change the legal world or the world in general. What would that be? 

Julie Batz 18:47 

Somehow allowing other people to understand other people's perspectives, that just because your experience is a certain way doesn't mean that you can make assumptions that, that, that mean that my conclusion or my experience is a certain way and that there are reasons why certain people end up in situations or make decisions or may struggle or may not. And there's just the ability to attempt to understand someone else's shoes without judging. 

Louis Goodman 19:14 

Julie, I have some more questions for you, but right now I'd like to bring in Alice Chang and Alice, can you unmute, and do you have a question or a comment for Julie? 

Alice Chang 19:27 

I do. Thanks so much for asking. Julie, as expected you were very well prepared for this interview. I love that you did your homework. My question for you is how do you use your background and your cultural competency in your day-to-day work? 

Julie Batz 19:44 

Thanks, Alice. Thanks for joining. I'm glad to see a familiar face. It's like warms my heart for real. You know, I think about this question a lot and I think that my application of my cultural background and my perspective changes based on the situation.

I think if I'm representing, let's say a Chinese landlord and they speak Mandarin, I may start speaking Mandarin, so they feel comfortable. So like just factually, just, you know, conversationally, I may do that. I may, or even a landlord or a homeowner who is being sued, even though they're not Chinese, but maybe just from another country and this is, this is their retirement, you know, whatever. I tend to share my background because there could be a lot of assumptions whenever you look at someone, not me, just anyone. So I tell them, look, I understand that this is the position, this is, this is where I'm coming from, take it or leave it. But, I'm here to protect your interests and I do not paint with a broad brush.

Just like with kids and you raise kids, you know, both of my girls are very, quite different and if I were to do the same, you know, Paint with a broad brush with both of them, it would not be good. And I tell my clients the same thing. And I think that's what the cultural background and what my different perspectives bring is that each client does, may need different, different brushes and different perspectives. And maybe some things I don't, I don't understand, but I can at least listen to them. And then, then, and then go from there. So I think that is probably the, The strongest probably skill that I bring. Thanks, Alice. 

Louis Goodman 21:13 

Thank you, Alice. I'm going to have some more time to ask Julie a few more questions. 

Julie Batz 21:18 

Let's do it.

Louis Goodman 21:19 

Julie, you've been around for a while. What mistakes do you think lawyers make? 

Julie Batz 21:27 

I don't, I don't know if it's mistakes. I think it's just, I think it's a learning curve. I think mistakes for me a lot of times is assuming someone's position when I don't know the facts, I assume someone's doing adverse counsel is doing something intentionally and that in fact is not true. And I've had that come on the opposite side too. So I think mistakes is just because you assume certain things like you have to ask questions to get the facts of why someone is, is someone intentionally trying to play games or are they not? You can't assume that. 

Louis Goodman 21:55 

How do you define success? 

Julie Batz 21:57 

I always thought that success meant I contributed to my community and had and was able to see the impact of that person carrying that on. And so that for me is the definition of success. That and also being able to take care of your, you know, your daily like money and, you know, as long as all those things aren't to your detriment or your family's detriment, that is success. 

Louis Goodman 22:19 

Is there someone living or dead who you'd like to meet? 

Julie Batz 22:23 

My maternal grandmother. My mom's popoa because, and there's many other famous people dead and alive. I wish I had lots of time to ask questions to talk with, but I think that with my mom's popoa, she bound her feet. She in China, she bound her feet and my mom has memories of making shoes that were about three inches long for her.

And I just, just questions about how that came up, how it was just, and three inches, I guess, was pretty large for a foot. And so she was discriminated, not, she just was not discriminated, but, you know, outcasted because her feet should have been smaller. And so specifically how that came about, how she felt, how much pain was it in, and also my mom has very vague memories, but like sewing your own shoes and what kind of, I guess, discrimination or whatever she got because her, she, her feet were larger than normal. Like, what was that? Like, that's just like a sub issue that I just find it fascinating. 

Louis Goodman 23:21 

Julie, if someone wants to get in touch with you, perhaps to talk to you about a case or to pick your brain about a case or to get involved with the Legal Access Alameda program. What's the best way for someone to contact you?

Julie Batz 23:39 

Thanks, Louis. The best way to contact me is to go to the California state bar website and search for me, Julie Batz. My last name's B like boy. Apple, tiger, zebra. I believe there's only one of me, but Julie L. Batz and my phone number and my email is on there. Email is the best way. 

Louis Goodman 23:59 

Okay. So we search for Julie Batz on the state bar website and we get your information there?

Julie Batz 24:06 

That's right. 

Louis Goodman 24:07 

Julie, is there anything that you wanted to discuss? Anything that you wanted to talk about that we haven't touched on anything at all? 

Julie Batz 24:14 

Yeah, there's two things. One is a question for you, Louis. And it's that, you know, you know, getting prepared for this podcast. As an aside, as evolved as I've been in with ACBA and legal access, I just found out about your podcast like three months ago, and then when I listened to your podcast, I know so many people on it.

I just wish I would have supported or listened anyway. So, and then I listened to probably too many of your podcasts, maybe not too many, but, Yeah. I was wondering if, has anyone interviewed you on your own podcast? Like I have questions for you. 

Louis Goodman 24:48 

Actually, I was interviewed a couple of times, and I think that if you go back and sort of look through on the website, you can find the places where I've posted that interview on this feed. I can't tell you exactly which ones they are, but I, they're there. And if you kind of look through, you can find them. And then. I also did one at the end of the year in 2022, which was called An End and a Beginning, where I talked about how I decided to go to law school. 

Julie Batz 25:29 

Oh, great. I didn't see that one.

Louis Goodman 25:31 

It's called An End and a Beginning, and I believe it came out right around the end of 2022 or the beginning of 2023. 

Julie Batz 25:40 

Second thing is I know that in preparation for today, I asked you, you know, what, what makes you do this? And you said, and correct me if I'm wrong to bring people together. Right? And I will say that even before today, you always, you already brought people together. I was able to speak with Alice and, Alice Chang and a couple other people, Ms. Ross, and we are, we had talked about this podcast. So even without me doing this, it, you know, that reason it, I mean, it's successful, there's a means to an end. So thank you for that. 

Louis Goodman 26:11 

Well, thank you for saying that it's, you know, you know, just to be perfectly straight about it, I mean, sometimes. I put these out there and I know people listen to them because I can see the downloads, but I, but, you know, just kind of never know, you know, what people are thinking or if it's helpful or interesting.

And you know, I do it primarily just because I kind of have fun with it. 

Julie Batz 26:36 

I'm seeing a smile on your face, I can see that. I love that. And the impact and you don't know the impact that you have on other people. So that's why it's like, it's important for you to be like, no, there's an impact Louis. There is. And then I have one other thing. 

So I have a quick a quick story that I found uplifting throughout my career. So when I got sworn in to the bar sworn in as a licensed attorney in California back in 2008, it was December 1st, 2008. I was in that big room at the, I think it was the Marriott over on 10th and Broadway, the same place I took the bar, huge room, three, I think there was three, three judges, one justice, or maybe three justices sworn, like several hundred people in.

And it was 08, an economy, You know, it was not great and the one justice and I wish I couldn't find his name, but this has given me hope. Throughout the 15 years or so, he said, you know, I know this is a bad economy and I know that, you know, things you, a lot of you may be nervous about what your path or what, what you're going to do next.

But I have to say that whenever I graduated and passed the bar, which was, I forget what year he said, he said the economy was similarly in a situation and I had the same reservations and what I, the advice that I have to all of you is that you, you, each of you will find your path. You may not think so now, but you will find your path. And I didn't believe him when that happened, but 15 years later. It is so true. Each of you will find your path, whether it be something that you expected to experience or not, you just really have to take life as, as it goes and make the best decision in front of you. I didn't think I'd be a nonprofit attorney for five years and then private. I thought it'd be the opposite. I'm so glad that it worked out that way. And if I can give advice or any hope or any sort of, you know, whisper to anyone listening. It'd be that you will find your path as well. And I wish I could quote the justice's name because he's the one that deserves the credit.

Louis Goodman 28:30 

Julie Batz, thank you so much for joining us today on the Love Thy Lawyer and Alameda County Bar Association podcast. It's been a pleasure to talk to you. 

Julie Batz 28:43 

Thank you so much, Louis. It is, this has been so exciting for me. Thank you. Thank Alameda County Bar Association. The community has been so supportive. I love this. Thank you. 

Louis Goodman 28:55 

That's it for today's edition of Love Thy Lawyer in collaboration with the Alameda County Bar Association. Please visit the lovethylawyer.com website where you can find links to all of our episodes. Also, please visit the Alameda County Bar Association website at ACBAnet.org, where you can find more information about our support of the legal profession, promoting excellence in the legal profession and facilitating equal access to justice.

Thanks to Joel Katz for music, Bryan Matheson for technical support, Paul Robert for social media and Tracy Harvey. I'm Louis Goodman. 

Julie Batz 29:45 

I was never one of those people that like wanted to be a lawyer from like the get go. You know, I wanted to like, I just wanted to feed penguins and I still just want to feed penguins.