Nolan Armstrong / Litigation to Mediation

Louis Goodman / Nolan Armstrong - Transcript

[00:00:03] Louis Goodman: Welcome to the Alameda County Bar Association and the Love Thy Lawyer podcast. I'm your host, Louis Goodman. Today, we welcome Nolan Armstrong to the podcast. Mr. Armstrong brings 20 years of litigation experience to Signature Resolutions, Panel of Neutrals. He emphasizes a collaborative approach to mediation and resolution of complex legal disputes.

He has extensive trial experience throughout Northern California. Nolan Armstrong, welcome to the Alameda County Bar Association and the Love Thy Lawyer podcast. 

[00:00:41] Nolan Armstrong: Thanks for having me, Louis. 

[00:00:42] Louis Goodman: It's a pleasure to have you. Where are you speaking to us from right now? 

[00:00:46] Nolan Armstrong: I'm in downtown Oakland at Signature's offices here.

[00:00:50] Louis Goodman: Can you tell us a little bit about the type of practice that you have right now as a mediator? 

[00:00:59] Nolan Armstrong: Well, I'm actually in a little bit of a unique position insofar as I'm in the process of closing down my 20-year litigation practice through the end of the year, and as of October, started with signature resolution as a mediator.

I'll be full time starting January 1st, but largely my mediation practice, I would expect is going to track what I did in my litigation practice, which was a wide variety of cases. Generally speaking, I was the type of lawyer that even if the particular subject matter of a case got me out of my comfort zone, I enjoyed that and took on the case and learned it as I went.

So as a practice I handle a lot of personal injury work, real estate, landlord tenant litigation, employment, and then just this smattering of interesting cases here and there that made life interesting. 

[00:01:48] Louis Goodman: How long have you been a lawyer? 

[00:01:50] Nolan Armstrong: 20 years. I was sworn in in 2005, so almost 20 years.

Close enough to round up, I think, right? 

[00:01:57] Louis Goodman: So now you sort of have one foot in each world in the litigation world and in the mediation world and you're going to be moving from litigation to mediation. Is that correct? 

[00:02:09] Nolan Armstrong: Yeah, I mean, I think at this point I got maybe a couple of toes in the litigation world and the rest of me is in the mediation world.

[00:02:14] Louis Goodman: Where are you from originally? 

[00:02:16] Nolan Armstrong: I am from Danville, so local. 

[00:02:19] Louis Goodman: And is that where you went to high school, in Danville? 

[00:02:21] Nolan Armstrong: Yeah, I went to high school at San Ramon Valley High School. 

[00:02:24] Louis Goodman: When you graduated from San Ramon, where'd you go to college? 

[00:02:27] Nolan Armstrong: I was lucky. I went to the University of California, Santa Barbara, UCSB, and had a great four years there and wouldn't do it any different if I had the choice now, that's for sure.

[00:02:37] Louis Goodman: Well, certainly one of the most beautiful campuses that I've ever been on. What was your experience at Santa Barbara like? How did that go? 

[00:02:45] Nolan Armstrong: It was great. Yeah. I really, I mean, first and foremost, I'm glad I got in. These days, the caliber of students that get into those schools is just extraordinary and that majored in political science and minored in history.

And so, I mean, obviously that's the logical step to law school, but I really enjoyed what I studied and met a lot of really great people. I'm still friends with, really good friends with a handful of my college buddies and stay in close contact with them. And I just, I enjoyed life down there. It was great.

[00:03:12] Louis Goodman: Did you take some time off between college and law school or did you go straight through? 

[00:03:17] Nolan Armstrong: I took a year off, which was nice. I knew I wanted to go to law school probably by my junior year or so of UCSB. I had my eye pretty firmly on law school at that point, but also felt like I would be best suited to taking a year off, kind of gathering myself and giving it my full effort after that year.

[00:03:36] Louis Goodman: What'd you do during that year? 

[00:03:37] Nolan Armstrong: Mostly had fun, to be honest with you. Worked kind of odd jobs here and there, and had an opportunity to travel to Chile for about a month in the wintertime, when it's the summer down there, which was great. And then did sort of the traditional post college backpacking tour around Europe for about six weeks in the summer before I started law school.

[00:03:58] Louis Goodman: That sounds great. What law school did you go to? 

[00:04:01] Nolan Armstrong: The George Washington university in Washington, D.C. 

[00:04:04] Louis Goodman: Now that's a real switch coming from Danville and Santa Barbara and now going back to the East Coast where the weather is not quite as nice as it is in Santa Barbara in the wintertime and also being some place that is sort of very much the heart of things as opposed to maybe being a little off to the side. 

[00:04:25] Nolan Armstrong: For sure. And I think the switch is actually what I wanted. I mean, I embraced it. I knew it was coming I mean; I wasn't quite ready for the weather and I can't say that I enjoyed that aspect of it all that much when you're talking to your college friends and you know It's 70 degrees in January and it's not 70 degrees in Washington DC. But yeah, setting that aside, it was a great experience and exactly what I wanted from law school.

I wanted sort of the more engaged, active experience when it came to law school and living in a city was great at that period of my life. And again, I mean, I was very fortunate, and I wouldn't do it differently if I had to again and really enjoyed the entire experience. 

[00:05:03] Louis Goodman: You said you started thinking about going to law school in your junior year of college. What was it that made you start really thinking about wanting to be a lawyer? 

[00:05:15] Nolan Armstrong: A little combination of a lot of things. My father was a lawyer, so I had exposure to lawyers growing up, not only through his practice, but through his colleagues and other people that I met through him. And then as I just got more serious about school, you know, over the course of college, I started really enjoying, you know, sitting down and diving into subjects, reading, researching, and I saw how those skills would likely translate into being a lawyer and it was, it seemed like an appealing line of work based on what I was enjoying at that part of my life.

[00:05:49] Louis Goodman: When you graduated from law school back in DC, can you talk a little bit about your first legal job and then briefly give us a history of your legal career, bringing it up to today where you're now transitioning out of litigation into mediation. 

[00:06:06] Nolan Armstrong: Sure. So, I'm a little unique in that my first legal job sort of segwayed into my only legal job in that I was a summer associate at the McNamara Law Firm, now in Pleasant Hill, then in Walnut Creek.

During the summer after my 2L year, I came back to California and worked at the firm for 10 weeks or so and really enjoyed the experience and was fortunate enough that they extended me a postgraduate offer of employment and accepted that and came back after I graduated from law school, studied for the bar here and started with McNamara in, I think, September of 2005, and I've been with them ever since up until my departure at the end of the year to Signature and have just been really blessed with a great career there. 

[00:06:56] Louis Goodman: What is it that you really like about being involved in the legal field? 

[00:07:01] Nolan Armstrong: I like helping people. I really do. I like the challenge of whether it's litigating a case, trying to settle a case through mediation. I mean, I think most lawyers, at least litigators, are competitive in that respect and, you know, try to rise to the occasion and really do what's necessary to do a good job and hopefully come out on top or in the context of mediation, you know, put in the time preparing and do what you have to do to get the case settled. But at the end of the day, what gives me the most satisfaction is when I help people. The same was true when I was litigating. I enjoyed when, whether we'd get a result at a trial that was beneficial to my clients, whether we'd settle a case or otherwise, you know, when my clients were really happy about the outcome and were appreciative of what I did to help them out of a difficult situation because I think the reality is nobody wants to end up in litigation. It's stressful for people. 

As lawyers, I think we kind of become impervious to it after a while. But after a while you realize that it takes a lot out of people's lives to be litigants, a lot of energy, emotion, and I like sending them on their way in the other direction on the other side of litigation.

I think that's better for people, generally. 

[00:08:12] Louis Goodman: If a young person was coming out of college, would you recommend law as a career? 

[00:08:16] Nolan Armstrong: Probably. It's a hard question these days. I think in part it's based on economics because law school is just incredibly expensive. So, I would say, you know, make sure that you really want to do it and that it's your passion and it's something you want to make a career out of.

I mean, obviously you don't know until you get into it, but you know, do your due diligence, you know, talk to lawyers, find out what they like and what they don't like about their jobs and have honest conversations with yourself about whether you could see yourself in their position and whether you'd be happy doing it and successful.

And if that's the case, then yeah, go for it. 

[00:08:47] Louis Goodman: What about the business of practicing law? You know, we talk about lawyers having a book of business and I'm wondering how the business aspect of the practice has gone for you and what your comment about that is for other attorneys. 

[00:09:03] Nolan Armstrong: It's been great for me. I'm leaving the practice and starting a mediation practice at a time where, you know, I had more business than I ever did, and it was to the point where I wasn't even soliciting business and in fact turning some away because I was so busy. I never thought I'd end up in that position, but you know, it's a good problem to have, and again, I think it ties back to, I ended up at a very good law firm that supported me.

Yeah. I established myself as someone that was reliable, that did good work, that took the job seriously. And the reward was that people put their trust in me, both inside and outside the firm, but particularly inside. And people were generous in handing off work to me and getting me started and in building that book of business.

So I was, I was lucky.

[00:09:46] Louis Goodman: Two-part question. What do you think is the best advice that you've ever received? And what advice would you give to a young attorney just starting out? And you could answer it one way or the other or both. 

[00:10:00] Nolan Armstrong: I think the best advice I ever received was to be yourself. Especially as a lawyer, you know, that you, there are so many different personality types, styles, and I think that there's a lot to learn from different methods of doing, but you're not going to be your best unless you figure out what's best for you, what style suits you the best.

If you're trying to, you know, impersonate someone else because you think that they're great. I just don't think it works. And I think a lot of lawyers fall into that trap because they see these lawyers that have had so much success, and they convince themselves that that's the way you have to do it.

And I just firmly believe that that's not the case. Again, you want to be open-minded and learn from other people but be honest about what works best for you. And that's really, I think, I'd pay it forward and that's the advice I'd give to other lawyers, you know, just figure that out for yourself and be, whatever decisions you arrive at about how you want to be.

Just be honest to that and be true to it and people will respect you and it'll work out well for you in the end. 

[00:10:56] Louis Goodman: What have you figured out about the way Nolan Armstrong works? And what's your style? How does that work? 

[00:11:04] Nolan Armstrong: I've always erred on the side of, you know, being congenial, being a problem solver.

And I'm not a, I wasn't a bare knuckles defense attorney, you know, looking to start sort of fights or disputes whenever possible. I mean, that's, again, that style works for a lot of people and I know a lot of lawyers and I, that's by no means any criticism of that way of practicing and it works for people and never was going to work for me.

So, you know, I tried to always deal with people in a way that fostered compromise, and congeniality and built relationships, but at the same time sending the message that, listen, I mean, I expect, it's a two-way street, right? I'm not going to be taken advantage of, if you are, if you do try to do that, you know, force is going to be met with force, right?

And certainly if, you know, if a case ends up in trial, that's, I was always up for the fight. 

[00:11:51] Louis Goodman: Do you think the legal system's fair? 

[00:11:54] Nolan Armstrong: I think it does a good job. I really do. I mean, I don't think it's perfect, but I do think it's fair. 

[00:11:58] Louis Goodman: As a mediator and as a neutral, what is it that you're looking for, and how can lawyers appearing in front of mediators be more effective for their clients?

[00:12:11] Nolan Armstrong: Well, I mean, I think the starting point is you're looking for a way to solve the problem that's at hand. I mean, the two parties are involved in a lawsuit and they're coming to you because, you know, ostensibly they want to put that to an end, and that's difficult though. I mean, sometimes money is getting in the way of that.

Sometimes emotion is getting in the way of it. Sometimes it's a combination of both of those things. And, yeah, I think from the outset, if people can come in with an open mind and, you know, say to themselves, I want to give this my best effort to try and resolve this dispute, that ends up going a long way.

That's the litigants. The attorneys, I think your good preparation is key. Make sure that your case is ready to be mediated when you show up. If you think that there are really important issues in the case that actually need to be flushed out through discovery that are going to impede resolution, if they're not, then go ahead and do that and spend the time to work the case up. Conversely, you know, if it's a straightforward case and doing things that are going to be costly is going to inhibit the mediation process because you're going to already be sunk into a bunch of costs and then I tell people, you know, think about that before you end up in mediation, be strategic about the way you devote your time and resources, and maximize your chance to settle the case.

And so that's preparation not only for the mediation session itself but preparing your case for mediation and figure out what's the best path to do that. And then I think also just communicate with the other side, be honest and transparent about what you think the big issues are in the case, and that way everyone's on the same page when they show up.

[00:13:41] Louis Goodman: I'm gonna shift gears here a little bit. I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit about what your family life has been like and how your practice has fit into your family life, how your family life has fit into your practice. 

[00:13:52] Nolan Armstrong: Yeah, for sure. So, like I mentioned before, my dad was a lawyer in the East Bay and he had an office in Danville. He was a real estate and land use lawyer, so something totally different than what I've done throughout my career. And then my wife actually is also a lawyer. We met in law school at George Washington University. She worked for a national law firm in San Francisco doing employment and consumer class action defense and was very successful on the track of getting ready to make partner. And we had made a family decision that when my oldest, I have two, two kids, two boys now, 14 and 11. So freshmen in high school and a sixth grader. And when our oldest was hitting around the kindergarten age, after a lot of discussions between the two of us, she decided to take a step back and works on a reduced level, still with the same firm.

So, you know, that's been key in terms of balancing everything. It was, we just sort of got to the point where we decided it's going to be too hard to have two trial lawyers, litigators in the family. We didn't want to live that kind of life. And yeah, it's too bad because I always tell people she's the best lawyer in the family and there's really not a close second, so she's made a lot of sacrifices, and I really appreciate that.

It's been the best thing for our family, and I don't think we have any regrets. 

[00:15:07] Louis Goodman: Let's say that you and your wife came into some real money, say 3 or 4 billion dollars. What, if anything, would you do differently in your life? 

[00:15:19] Nolan Armstrong: It'd be a good problem to have, right? 

[00:15:20] Louis Goodman: Yes, it would. 

[00:15:22] Nolan Armstrong: You know, I'd like to think that I'd continue working because I do, and that's one of the main reasons that I decided to make the switch to mediation was that I really see sort of long term happiness is being able to continue to do something that you enjoy for as long as possible. So I think I'd like to continue working and I'd really like to find charitable endeavors that I believed in.

I think you get a lot of satisfaction from giving. 

[00:15:43] Louis Goodman: Let's say you had a magic wand, that was one thing in the world that you could change in the legal world or just the world in general. What would you like to do with that magic wand? 

[00:15:50] Nolan Armstrong: I'd like to get everybody talking to each other again, right? Instead of talking with the people that agree with you, I think, and we'd all be better off if that was the case and we were hearing each other out and trying to understand one another's viewpoints a little bit better. 

[00:16:04] Louis Goodman: Well, Mr. Armstrong, I have a few other questions for you, but before we get there, we have two people on the call with us and I'm hoping that they have a question or a comment for you.

And I'm going to call first on Robin Miller. Robin Miller. Can you unmute and join us in this conversation with a question or a comment for Nolan Armstrong? 

[00:16:29] Robin Miller: Hi, thanks. I actually was interested, I think in the description, I don't have it in front of me now. There was something that you had worked on. I think it was either Americans with Disabilities Act cases or something disability related and I work in that field, special education.

So I was just curious about that aspect of your work in that area or if it's just a mediation or if there's a, you know, what your, how that came into your story, I guess. 

[00:16:54] Nolan Armstrong: Sure. Yeah. Thanks for the question. I appreciate it. And thanks for joining us. So, over the years, I, like a lot of defense lawyers, I handled sort of what I would characterize as the run of the mill ADA, single plaintiff access cases, people visiting restaurants, other places of public accommodations where they claim to have been denied access under the ADA.

But I think the case that you're referring to is a little bit more unique. I was retained by a publicly traded real estate investment trust, a REIT. Those are the sort of brick and mortar of, in the real estate space, and in this instance, it was the brick and mortar for Courtyard by Marriott, Hilton Garden Inn, those type of hotels, and they were alleged, those hotels were alleged to have violated the ADA provisions concerning guest transportation.

They had hotel shuttles that were alleged to have not been in compliance with the ADA. And it was a nationwide class action that my client had hotels in, I don't know, I don't think it was 50 States, but the majority of the country and the plaintiffs were a class that alleged to have been discriminated against it at, or denied access at some of those hotels.

So it was really interesting. The case was here in the northern district and ultimately was litigated to a settlement and really good experience and I think ultimately the result was beneficial not only for my client but you know also for the class. 

[00:18:27] Louis Goodman: Megan Lang, I see you're on the call. Can you unmute and join us?

[00:18:33] Megan Lang: Sure. Thank you for the conversation. I am also a litigator who transitioned to being a mediator and I appreciate just hearing other people like going through this transition, particularly for the breadwinner of your family. It's a big decision to make. One question I have for you is I feel you highlighted this moment in time where it seems the zeitgeist is not effective communication and said if you had lots of money that you could sort of focus on that and on a volunteer time.

I'm wondering what role you see, private practice mediators having and supporting community mediation. Right now there's a lot of community based organizations that have focused on this work that are closing. Seeds in Berkeley, which served all of the East Bay, recently closed its doors.

Community Boards in San Francisco is having a hard time. And I'm curious if you, have any thoughts about that, what the private practice mediation world can do to support work that's being done, you know, on sliding scales and in our communities? 

[00:19:36] Nolan Armstrong: I mean, , I agree with you. I mean, number one, congratulations on your transition and, you know, if you ever have any questions or ever want to talk about it further, you're welcome to reach out to me.

But, in terms of the sort of the giving back, I would say, I think it's important. It'd be nice if, you know, every mediator is different, right, in a different point in their career. For me personally, it'd be nice to have the ability and the time to give back and do some pro bono work as a mediator.

I'm just starting out now, so I'm probably not there yet, but I think it's important. And I think, you know, mediation shouldn't just be an arena that is available only to sort of the wealthy litigants or the well-funded litigants. And, you know, to the extent we can support those community based organizations, we should with our time and the courts do a good job, I think of making less costly mediation alternatives available. So I certainly encourage mediators to get involved with those programs if they can. I spent like five plus years on the settlement conference panel at the San Francisco Superior Court, donating my time and found it really, really valuable and enjoyed it a lot.

So yeah, I think those opportunities are out there, you know, hopefully more of these community based organizations can stick around, but if they don't, I think the courts are a good place to give back as well. 

[00:20:57] Louis Goodman: Thank you. Thank you, Megan. Thank you, Robin. You just brought up something that I'm wondering about. Can you talk a little bit about the difference in terms of litigating in the state courts versus the federal courts and if you have any preference for one versus the other?

[00:21:14] Nolan Armstrong: I'd say the rules are a lot tighter and more strictly enforced in federal court. That's probably the biggest difference that I've seen. And the process is generally more streamlined and sort of quicker just because the volume of cases isn't so significant. And state court judges have a hard job in that their dockets are overloaded, and their resources are more limited than I think any of us would like them to be. And they do a great job despite that challenging environment, but the federal court justice judges just have more resources at their availability. They have magistrate judges who can handle discovery and other aspects of the litigation for them that just make the process more streamlined and efficient.

[00:21:53] Louis Goodman: If someone wants to get in touch with you, Mr. Armstrong, either in terms of getting in touch with your firm for the litigation practice or more significantly getting in touch with you for mediation, how does one contact you? What's the best way to do that? 

[00:22:11] Nolan Armstrong: For my mediation practice, my bio and other information is available, Signature Resolution. com. You can also email me at narmstrong@signatureresolution.com. I'd say that's the easiest way. And then. As I mentioned before, the firm that I'm with through the end of the year is the McNamara firm. I'm in the Pleasant Hill office. There's also an office in Fairfield. 

[00:22:32] Louis Goodman: And I take it that if we were to Google Nolan Armstrong attorney or Nolan Armstrong mediator in the Bay Area, that we'd be able to find you fairly easily. Is that correct? 

[00:22:43] Nolan Armstrong: I sure hope so. 

[00:22:44] Louis Goodman: Is there anything else that you would like to talk about? Anything that we haven't discussed? Anything at all that you'd like to bring up? 

[00:22:51] Nolan Armstrong: I think we covered it. 

[00:22:53] Louis Goodman: Nolan Armstrong, thank you so much for joining us today at the Alameda County Bar Association and Love Thy Lawyer podcast. Really appreciate having you on and thank you to Robin Miller and Megan Lang for joining us as well. 

That's it for today's edition of Love Thy Lawyer in collaboration with the Alameda County Bar Association. Please visit the lovethylawyer.com website where you can find links to all of our episodes. Also, please visit the Alameda County Bar Association website at ACBAnet.org, where you can find more information about our support of the legal profession, promoting excellence in the legal profession and facilitating equal access to justice.

Thanks to Joel Katz for music, Bryan Matheson for technical support, Paul Robert for social media and Tracy Harvey. I'm Louis Goodman.

[00:24:04] Nolan Armstrong: I just arrived at the conclusion that for the long term, what I wanted to do was be a mediator, and now felt like as good of time of any to sort of make that leap.