Peter Goodman - No Nepotism Involved

Louis Goodman / Peter Goodman – Transcript

Louis Goodman 00:03 

Welcome to Love Thy Lawyer, where we talk to attorneys about their lives and careers. I'm Louis Goodman. In this day and age of nepotism raising its ugly head, let me assure you that Peter Goodman and I share a last name but are not related, unfortunately for me. Peter is an outstanding criminal practitioner who has tried cases in both state and federal court. He has had a front row seat to much of the recent history of the San Francisco Bay Area, and he's had a case that went all the way to the United States Supreme Court. Peter Goodman, welcome to Love Thy Lawyer. 

Peter Goodman 00:45 

Thank you, Louis. Glad to be here. 

Louis Goodman 00:47 

It's great to see you. I've seen you in court for many years, and I always enjoy seeing you because you always have something interesting or fun to say. Where are you speaking to us from right now? 

Peter Goodman 01:03 

I'm speaking to you from my music room in my house, where I have a lot of albums and CD players, and I try to spend as much time there as possible. 

Louis Goodman 01:13 

And what city is that in? 

Peter Goodman 01:15 

Lafayette. 

Louis Goodman 01:16 

Where are you from originally? 

Peter Goodman 01:18 

San Francisco. Born and raised in San Francisco.

Louis Goodman 01:21 

And can you tell us a little bit about what sort of practice that you have right now? 

Peter Goodman 01:26 

Well, right now, for many years, I was doing a lot of court appointed work through the system in federal court. There you have a panel and I got on the panel in 1980. And didn't get off the panel until last year. So I had a chance to do a lot of federal stuff, which was very informative, very good for my practice. And at the same time I was doing state retained cases. So it was about half and half. And that's what I started doing in 1980 when I started in private practice. 

Louis Goodman 02:01 

What do you see as the difference between state and federal court in terms of practicing? 

Peter Goodman 02:07 

Federal court is more the work of trying to get the court to agree with you when the court often has opinions about what is happening in the case that are hard to budge. So there's a lot more give and take in state court. You know, you never have conferences with the judge in chambers and with the U. S. attorney. Everything is very formal. And the good thing is that the judges actually read your motion and are pretty well informed. And trying to get them to change their minds once they hit the bench can be hard, but it can be done and I've done it and a lot of other people have done it and, it's something to strive for.

Louis Goodman 02:58 

Do you have a preference for federal versus state court? 

Peter Goodman 03:01 

For different things. If I have a motion that I think is really grounded in the law, I'd rather have a federal judge, I think, because the state court judges, particularly in San Francisco that I've seen recently, are just overwhelmed with what they have to do and the cases that are coming in front of them. And you have a better shot I think it well prepared motion in federal court than you do in San Francisco or I've ended up spending a fair amount of time recently.

Louis Goodman 03:32 

Do you think that the fact that federal district judges are lifetime appointments and state judges may someday have to stand for election changes anything about the way they view cases or the way they rule on cases? 

Peter Goodman 03:48 

Ever since I started practicing in San Francisco, I was immediately, I noted the fact that politics, I think, play a lot more of a role in San Francisco, for instance, than they do in federal court. One of the great things about federal court is the judges don't run for office. So what they do is based entirely on what their belief is of the facts and the law. And there isn't this political pressure like there is on the judges in San Francisco now in state court.

And that is a real bonus. I'm glad that the federal judges don't have to run for a reelection. 

Louis Goodman 04:27 

You said you were from San Francisco. Is that where you went to high school? 

Peter Goodman 04:31 

Yeah. Went to Galileo in, started in 1959. I was told before I went to Galileo by my homeroom teacher in middle school, that since I had not transferred to Lowell, I would be nothing in the rest of my life. And I went home and said to my mother, you know, my homeroom teacher just told me, I won't amount to anything because I didn't go to Lowell. She said, she did what? Well, we lived across the street from Marine, so she went over there. I don't know what she said to her, but there was a mouthful to give to the teacher.

And I ended up going to Galileo and it was a great school to go to. It was really diverse. There were some very young, very committed teachers, and I had a great time. 

Louis Goodman 05:23 

What sort of things did you do there? 

Peter Goodman 05:26 

Well, I had a science teacher who knew that a lot of us had never been in the woods and gone hiking and camping and things like that. And if you can believe that, these days, he took groups of us on trips to Sierra Nevada and, he taught me how to ride, he taught me how to shoot. It was all kind of extracurricular stuff. And he was a great guy, real influence on me. And his son, who I first saw when he was about two years old, I ended up running into at the hall of justice and he was now a San Francisco police officer. So we became friendly and I still am in touch with him. So it was a great experience knowing his father and now knowing him. And I got some insights into police work talking to him a fair amount, and it worked out really well. 

Louis Goodman 06:25 

When you graduated from Galileo, you ultimately went to college, where'd you go?

Peter Goodman 06:30 

UC Berkeley, in the days when you didn't have to be the kind of student that does get into Berkeley now. They were taking people on the theory that it was a community based college and everybody should at least get a shot. And so they would allow people to get in with B averages, which is what I had. And then they would flunk out a large number of people at the end of the first year, and it was kind of a winnowing process. 

So I got in, and I stayed in, and was able to graduate with a degree in history, and I enjoyed it. Sixty two was a wonderful time to be in Berkeley, just all that was going on at that time.

Louis Goodman 07:17 

Yeah, there was a lot going on in Berkeley at that time. I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit about what was going on, and your observation of it. 

Peter Goodman 07:28 

Well, it was the beginning or very near the beginning of the civil rights movement. So in the fall of 62 students had set up tables in front of the entrance to UC Berkeley on Bancroft, and that led to the free speech movement, which happened in 63 when the people that ran UC decided that they didn't want kids recruited to go south. And there was, as you probably are aware, a big deal that happened where Mario Savio and a number of people really put their lives on the line and started pushing for freedom of the students to go and learn about things that were happening outside of the campus.

And it was just a wonderful time to be there when Mr. Weinberg got arrested and then everybody surrounded the car and he couldn't get out, but he was also very proud to be there. And the movements that happened afterwards, you know, it was an exciting time. Really exciting. 

Louis Goodman 08:40 

Is that when People's Park was going on as well?

Peter Goodman 08:42 

Yeah, you know, that was later, like in, after the mid sixties, so free speech movement had kind of died down, but then People's Park showed up and then Reagan sent in the troop and the blue beanies, the Alameda County Sheriff were there. And I was working at the time at a record store on Telegraph Avenue called Record City. So we were located between Durant and Bancroft, and that was where a lot of people were getting gassed and we could actually just look out the window and see crowds running back and forth and the police chasing them. And I saw a lot of police misconduct, police brutality. And I think in some real way that helped me figure out what I wanted to do later on.

Louis Goodman 09:36 

After you went to Cal Berkeley, you went to law school. Did you take any time off between college and law school? 

Peter Goodman 09:47 

Yeah, I did. I, probably the last two or three years, I actually did not graduate from Berkeley until 1970. So I was there as an undergraduate for eight years. And the reason it took so long is because I decided there was too much going on to devote all of my time to school. So the place I worked gave me a part time job and I was able to cut the units that I had to take down in half. And I got not only interested in politics, but music. And I started going to concerts at the Fillmore and the family dog and places like that, and really began to love music and love what was going on musically during that time.

I actually could not decide what I wanted to do when I did graduate, but I knew that I wanted to at least give myself a chance to see what it would be like being in a band. 

Louis Goodman 10:44 

So you were in a band, right? I mean you were, you were a drummer, correct? 

Peter Goodman 10:48 

Correct. 

Louis Goodman 10:49 

And what kind of band was it and what was that experience like?

Peter Goodman 10:53 

It was a blues band, but I met a guy who was the guitar player. He and I started looking for people, a young woman who I knew turned out to be an incredible singer, and there were six of us, I think. And we just put together this band and started playing usually not for money, but for political causes and things like that. And we were together about a year and a half and the band broke up and I was not sure what I wanted to do at that point. And I ended up living in Hawaii, which is something I think you and I shared in common on Maui. 

Louis Goodman 11:32 

Where in Maui did you live? 

Peter Goodman 11:35 

Outside of Pa'ia. 

Louis Goodman 11:36 

What did you do when you were in Maui? 

Peter Goodman 11:39 

I picked guavas. I ended up in a commune, in a beautiful kind of valley right outside of Pa'ia and that's how the commune raised money to keep going. We would pick guavas and take them to Pa'ia or Wailuku where the ships landed, you know, and get paid for that and grew a lot of our own stuff. And so it was great. It was like living a dream, you know, in a way. 

Louis Goodman 12:12 

How long did you live in Maui? 

Peter Goodman 12:14 

I lived there about six months. And after that, although I loved it there, I got a little bit tired of feeling as cut off as I did from what was actually happening on the mainland. And I realized that I really did need an infusion of what was happening in the world and just, you know, as much as I loved it there, I couldn't see spending the rest of my life there. So I decided to come back. 

Louis Goodman 12:45 

And was it after you left Maui that you went to law school? So where did you go to law school? 

Peter Goodman 12:51 

Golden Gate. 

Louis Goodman 12:52 

What was it, and when was it that you first kind of knew that you really wanted to be a lawyer?

Peter Goodman 13:01 

I think it was when I came back and our band had broken up when I was in Hawaii. I played with a bunch of people, but nothing was really coming together in terms of the band. And I thought, and I had gotten a pretty good idea of what it was like to be a musician when I was playing with Fluid Drive, that was the name of our band.

And, you know, staying up until two and three in the morning, seeing drunks everywhere. It was actually a lifestyle that I realized I did not want to partake in. And the people really were into music. That was their life. And they could ignore all of that stuff because they loved playing music so much. And I loved playing music, but I didn't love it enough to give up everything else. 

And what I realized later on was what you had to do if you want to be a musician, music is everything. And it wasn't everything to me. And so if I figured I had to move on. 

Louis Goodman 14:01 

Yeah. My last job before I went to law school, I was a road manager for a band. It was, you know, I mean, it was serious. It was, it was, Clive Davis and Arista Money and we traveled all over the country and I was the road manager and, you know, moved a lot of equipment and drove a lot of equipment and handled a lot of band money and that sort of thing. I would sometimes sit in the club, in the sound booth usually, and I'd look out there and the band would be on stage and I'd look at the people there and I'd go, why are you here? I mean, you could just be at home in your own house and you're out here in this grubby club and, you know, because all I really wanted to do was go home most of the time. And so I know something about that music experience and how you really do have to have something really above and beyond what normal people have in order to really make the most of that experience. And I never worked harder in my life than I did when I was managing that band. 

So you went to law school at Golden Gate. How did that go? 

Peter Goodman 15:25 

I really liked it because they had also, at that time, women would be coming involved in, a larger number of women were becoming, were going to law school, a lot of whom had raised families and then decided, I don't want to stick around, you know, in an empty nest.

I want to do something with the rest of my life. And they had enrolled in law school. So it was a really, it was like 50 percent women, 50 percent men. And I met some wonderful women and also, you know, Jim Harrigan? Jim Harrigan was the lawyer for the sheriff. He ended up being a lawyer for the sheriff. But he was, a friend I made in first year law school, and he was the one that actually told me, you know, the Alameda County Public Defender's Office takes in student interns, and he was doing that, and he said, you should come over and see what it's about, and I did, and I became an intern the second year, and then that really had a major impact on my career, because I loved it, I loved doing criminal, and I realized, this is what I want to do.

Louis Goodman 16:31 

So it was your first job out of law school, the Alameda County Public Defender? 

Peter Goodman 16:35 

Yeah. 

Louis Goodman 16:36 

And how long were you there? 

Peter Goodman 16:38 

Four years. 

Louis Goodman 16:39 

What sort of work did you do? 

Peter Goodman 16:41 

You know, the work that you're also familiar with, where you get transferred from, I started out in Livermore, when Livermore had a court. And did interviews at Big Greystone and Little Greystone and saw the cops, the guards walking around, you know, the top, I mean, it was a wild, wild scene, and I did that for the first six months. And then I think I went to Hayward where I was there for a while, and then I got sent to Oakland. 

Oakland was just incredible. I mean, there was so much stuff going on there and I really liked it there. And I stayed there as long as I could, because you got to try cases. There were a lot of DAs that, you know, that I got to know, John Burris was a DA at that time, and George Niespolow and a bunch of other people, and Marilyn Patel was a judge, and she was just an incredible judge. I got to know her. It was wonderful. It was wonderful. And the pace of the place was really, something to live with. 

Louis Goodman 17:45 

You worked for four years at the Alameda County Public Defender's Office. Then you had this long career doing court appointed work in federal court. I'm wondering if you could just kind of walk us through the career path and the kinds of things that you did as an attorney.

Peter Goodman 18:06 

Well, when I decided to leave the PD's office, I was obviously looking for somewhere to land. And I thought I might be able to get a job at Penny Cooper because her firm was just doing all of the heavy drug cases at that time. That didn't work out, but I did get to go into kind of a rent space from an incredible lawyer named George Walker.

George was just an amazing guy to look at, an amazing guy to see in court. He was about, you know, 6'3 former basketball player, incredibly handsome, incredibly charismatic. 

Louis Goodman 18:45 

Smooth as silk. 

Peter Goodman 18:47 

Yes, yes, George was that. And he had just, when I came into his office, he had just defended the Hells Angel that was accused of killing the guy during the Ultima concert.

He did a little bit of everything. He really was a mentor to me and somebody that I will never forget. So working with him, you know, taught me how to make a living doing retained work. And one thing he taught me was never accept gifts from your client because they're probably stolen. And that's, I had gotten a very beautiful suit from a client.

And I walked in and said, George, you know, my client just gave me this beautiful suit. Said, look for the tag. And sure enough, there was a tag on it from some store and I went, Oh, okay. So I learned, I learned. 

Louis Goodman 19:42 

What is it that you really like about practicing law? You've been doing it for a long time. You don't have to do it, but there's other things that you could have done in the course of your career. but you've stayed practicing law. You've stayed being a criminal practitioner. What is it about the practice of law and the way you've done it has kept you here? 

Peter Goodman 20:06 

I think the fact that every case is a different set of facts, a different set of laws to apply and the people that I have represented, the vast majority of them are people that I was able to connect with and being able to get into somebody else's life, hopefully at the end of the time you're representing that person, know that you contributed something to their future. 

I don't think there's any type of work that gets you so close to somebody when they are charged with, you know, something that could send them away to prison for a long time and you get to know their families. You get to know their histories, you have to really put together, you know, a biography basically of who they are, what kinds of things they've gone through that got them where they are.

And that ability to be able to communicate with somebody on a very personal level because of the situation of what you're doing for a living is very unique. 

And then there's court. I mean, court. Is an ongoing play, you know, every day where you're seeing drama and when you're trying a case, you're seeing people from that you might have never known and never had any contact with suddenly become an important part of your life. They are all there serving on the jury and there is nothing in the world like getting an acquittal when the jury comes back, not guilty. That is an experience that makes it all worthwhile. 

Louis Goodman 21:42 

How do you handle things emotionally when you don't get an acquittal, when a client gets convicted and ends up getting a substantial prison sentence?

Peter Goodman 21:51 

It's the downside of being a criminal lawyer, you know, you have to live with the fact that the person was convicted and then inevitably you go back over, well, this is a decision that I made here. Maybe if I'd done something different, it might've been different and it might've had a different outcome.

I mean, I second guess myself a lot when there is a conviction. And what I try to do, whether they're convicted or not, is stay in touch with them to let them know that if a verdict comes back against them, we may continue a relationship and we may stay in touch. And it's important for people to feel like they're not abandoned the minute the jury comes back with a guilty verdict.

People that you help, it's a joy, you know, to help them. I had a guy in federal court who was charged with gun possession and we went to two trials. He was, there was a hung jury on both trials. Finally, the US Attorney at the suggestion of the government dismissed the case and he went on to leave the Bay Area. He had been in a gang in San Francisco. Left, moved to Chicago, got married, has two kids. He came out to visit his family in San Francisco recently, and we talked and we stayed in touch. 

You know, that kind of connection to somebody where they know that you've done everything you could to help them, to me is worth it all.

Louis Goodman 23:26 

Would you recommend to a young person thinking about a career choice to go into law? 

Peter Goodman 23:31 

Yeah, I would. I would. And it's a hard dollar to earn, unless, you know, you're representing corporations and things like that. It is a hard dollar to earn, but it's a very rewarding dollar at the same time.

Louis Goodman 23:46 

Well, what about the business of practicing law? I mean, how has that gone for you and how has the business aspect of it, you know, met or differed from your expectations? 

Peter Goodman 23:57 

The business aspect was the hardest part of it for me, because I was so used to the Public Defender's Office to not having money enter into it at all. And that spoiled me because that never became an issue. In retained cases, it can all, it can be a really big part of what you're doing, collecting the money. And I don't know, I'm not the person to go to for information about how best to run a private practice as a criminal defense lawyer. 

In the cases that I, the federal cases that I did, I was notoriously late in submitting my vouchers every week because I just didn't want to deal with it. And fortunately, I got paid in the cases, but the business aspect is what I don't like about it. I wish I worked for free. 

Louis Goodman 24:53 

Yea, I think the business part of being an attorney in private practice is something that all of us struggle with. And I also think that, you know, law is a bit of a calling. And if you don't kind of have that calling, I think most people are going to end up being very disappointed with being a lawyer if they think that going into law is some sort of a get rich quick scheme, because it's not, I mean, you can get paid okay, you know, live an okay life, but it's, you know, in general, lawyers are, are not living at the top of the financial food chain.

Peter Goodman 25:34 

No, they aren't. There are some that can, but the vast majority are not going to look to being a criminal defense lawyer as a way of getting rich quick. 

Louis Goodman 25:46 

And even, you know, some of these guys who like have these very lucrative personal injury practices. You know, they get a big settlement or a big judgment. What do they do? They plow it all back into the next big case so that, you know, they can finance the next case that they're hoping to win. And I think that, that to a large extent, just like you were saying about having this relationship with a criminal defendant client. I think a lot of those people, at least people I've talked to for this podcast really end up having that kind of relationship with someone who's been badly injured and is really coming to an attorney at a very, very low point in their life. 

Peter Goodman 26:31 

And that's one of the bad things about the federal practice because the penalties for gun possession, drug are so draconian and many of the clients I've represented in state court, when they were indicted in federal court for possessing drugs or guns, these minimum mandatory sentences were unbelievable to them.

Louis Goodman 26:56 

What's your family life been like and how has practicing law fit into that and the family life fit into the practice of law? 

Peter Goodman 27:03 

Fortunately, I have a wife that is very understanding of the time that I have had to spend during the time we've been married. We've been married 24 years now and she's very supportive.

Louis Goodman 27:17 

I'd like you to tell us a little bit about the case that's entitled Lange v. California, which is going to be found at 594 of the U.S. reports of the United States Supreme Court. It's a 2021 case. I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about that case and your involvement in it? 

Peter Goodman 27:37 

Art Lange came to see me because he had a DUI and a prior DUI. And I had become interested in DUI cases because there were so many issues that come up in DUI cases, you know, scientific issues, but also legal issues involving car stop, all the things that are important to Fourth Amendment rights. And so he came to see me and he had had a very high blood alcohol, 0.24. He had a prior, it was Sonoma County, which I had heard was pretty tough county to deal with. I thought it was going to be a very difficult thing to get a good result for him until I got discovery of the body worn camera that was on the CHP officer. And the background was that he had come out of a bar in Sonoma, gotten into his car, was driving down highway 12 on his way home. He had honked inappropriately and he was playing his music to it. And the CHP officer at 10 o'clock at night on a Sunday night figured that was a good reason to follow him. And fortunately the cop turned on his camera in the front of the CHP vehicle, he ended up following Art for more than two miles. 

As much alcohol as Art had consumed he was still an excellent driver, and there was nothing in his driving that could lead the cop to pull him over for weaving or, you know, failing to stop or all of that stuff. So the camera showed that he follows him, then as Art is going up the hill to his house and about to turn into his driveway, the cop for the first time puts his lights on, and Art is slowed down at that point.

He sees the lights and for whatever reason, he decides, I'm going to pull in my driveway anyway. Maybe the guy wants to get around me. Maybe this is an emergency vehicle, whatever. Goes into his driveway and hits the button to raise his garage door. The CHP officer follows him right onto his driveway and sees Art pull in and then sees the garage door begin to come down.

And this is all on video. And he stops, gets out of the car, walks up. And sticks the foot under the door to prevent it from closing. And the door begins to go up again. And then the cop goes in and says, didn't you see my light? And Art goes, no, I didn't see your light. Well, I can smell alcohol, and he arrests him for DUI. 

So in looking at the video, it appeared to me that when the cop sticks his foot under the door, there was something wrong, something very wrong with that. And then enters his house through the garage. So I did a motion to suppress Sonoma County Superior Court. And the cop, you know, basically said what was shown in the video. I didn't call my client. I called the investigator who kind of threw some doubt into why the cop, you know, would have been following for so long, et cetera, but the judge ultimately will know the cop had the right to enter because he was following somebody who had at least committed two infractions. And when Art failed to stop, which would have been in the middle of the street, he had the right to chase him up the driveway and into his house. 

So I lost the Superior Court and then I filed a appeal in the First District. They came back with a case that said in a different context, a cop had followed somebody into their house and the person was guilty of a misdemeanor, and it was a jailable misdemeanor, and therefore the cop had the right to enter the house.

The argument didn't go well, you know, the First District said, no, no, you know, this was a hot pursuit of a fleeing misdemeanor, and that gives the cop the right to go in. I then filed a petition for review in the California Supreme Court, they didn't accept review. And then my client who had now fought the case for two plus years said, well, what's our only option?

I said, well, our only option is to go to the United States Supreme Court. Oh, how long will that take? What will that cost? I said, yeah, I know you fought this tooth and nail with me. I appreciate that but maybe there's some way that we can interest somebody else in the case who knows something about United States Supreme Court law.

So I called a guy named Jeffrey Fisher, who is probably the eminent criminal appellate lawyer in the United States. He's won four or five just major cases in the United States Supreme Court. He's also the head of a program at Stanford, they deal with constitutional issues and criminal cases. I called him, I said, this is the situation, and I've got this video I'd like you to look at. He said, send it over. And the next day he called me and said, we'll take the case. And I said, wow, why? He said, well, There was a case, you know, five years ago where the United States Supreme Court said, we have to do something about these chases of misdemeanor into their homes. And it turned out there were all kinds of cases in federal and state court throughout the United States about whether that was an okay thing to do or not, or whether, like the First District, they had said, well, the officer was chasing somebody who was attempting to evade the stop and therefore there was a misdemeanor and it's a jailable misdemeanor and therefore jailable misdemeanors allow police officers to go into your house if they're, if you're being chased. 

So he said, I can't, you can't be listed as the attorney of record because we are going to be the attorney of record. But we'd like you to participate in the drafting of the brief. My students and I are going to meet through Zoom, please come to the Zoom meetings. And that's what I did for a few months. And then eventually the case went up to the Supreme Court. 

The Attorney General of California decided they weren't going to defend the case, that they actually agreed that police officers have to make a decision based on the facts that they know as to whether this person is a danger to the community, or there's some exigent circumstance that justifies the police going into the house.

And our argument was, and this is what they bought in the Supreme Court, that nothing he had done indicated that he was a threat to anybody's safety. The briefing was done. One of the great moments in my career would be listening to Jeffrey Fisher argue the case in front of the Supreme Court. He was questioned by every one of the justices, including Alito, who was one of the, it was actually Roberts that was the worst, you know, he said, well, it could have been anything. It could have been, you know, a guy had a gun, you could of had this, bombs, whatever. 

Anyway, the end result was a decision nine zero that said police officers have to weigh the facts, even though it's a rushed situation, even though there's a lot going on, they can't just say, oh, well, this person is guilty of some misdemeanor and therefore I can go into their house without a warrant. And so that is now the law of the land and it has been incredible to think the number of cases now that have been influenced by that decision. 

That's why I thought it was an incredible experience to have and anybody doing any kind of work in our field that has an issue they believe in should do everything they can to see that it gets heard.

Louis Goodman 35:50 

I'm going to shift gears here a little bit, Peter. Let's say you came into some real money, three or four billion dollars. What, if anything, would you do differently in your life? 

Peter Goodman 35:59 

I wouldn't stop working. I'd probably live better than I do now, but I'd live pretty well. 

Louis Goodman 36:06 

Let's say you had a magic wand and, and there was one thing that you could change in the legal world or the general world. What would that be? 

Peter Goodman 36:17 

Redistribute money. I mean, the amount of money that is controlled by the one or two percent of our population is disgusting and something needs to be done about distributing that money more equally. So that's what I would do. 

Louis Goodman 36:34 

Peter, if someone wanted to get in touch with you, someone wanted to talk to you about representation or another attorney wanted to get in touch with you to pick your brain about something, what's the best way to get in touch? 

Peter Goodman 36:48 

Google me on, on Google with my name and attorney at law, and the contact information will come up. 

Louis Goodman 36:55 

So we just Google Peter Goodman attorney San Francisco, and get all the information? 

Peter Goodman 37:02 

Yep.

Louis Goodman 37:03 

Peter, is there anything that you want to talk about that we haven't discussed? 

Peter Goodman 37:07 

No, I think I've covered it and it's fun. You said that this was going to be fun and it was. 

Louis Goodman 37:13 

Peter Goodman, thank you so much for joining me today on the Love Thy Lawyer podcast. It's been a pleasure to talk to you. 

Peter Goodman 37:19 

Same here. Take care. 

Louis Goodman 37:21 

That's it for today's episode of Love Thy Lawyer. If you enjoyed listening, please share it with a friend and follow the podcast. If you have comments or suggestions, send me an email. Take a look at our website at lovethylawyer.com, where you can find all of our episodes, transcripts, photographs and information.

Thanks to my guests, and to Joel Katz for music, Bryan Matheson for technical support, Paul Robert for social media and Tracy Harvey. I'm Louis Goodman.

Peter Goodman 38:05 

Now I see two of you. Oh, interesting. You called yourself. Yeah. Okay. That's good. 

Louis Goodman 38:17 

Don't worry about it, we'll fix it all in post-production.